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| one of us |
The upper spec for PSI in an '06 is 60,000 PSI, while the 270 is good to 65,000 PSI--same cartridge, different bullet diameter. I'm told that this is because there are a lot of older actions, like Lee Enfields, that need the lower pressure. So here's the question: Will an old 8mm Mauser handle 65,000 PSI as well as a modern rifle? If not, will heat treating the receiver bring it up to that level? I'm not asking about whether it will blow up in my face--I just wonder if it will handle that pressure without slowly stretching, messing up the lugs, etc. | ||
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| one of us |
The 270 is a high pressure round, it is spec'd at 54,000 cup, only the Weatherbys are higher at 55,000 cup. | |||
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| <Don G> |
IMHO heat treating the pre-1924 M98 actions will make them very good for 270s. A lot of people get by without it, but they are risking setting back the lugs. Afer 1924 and before 1942 they probably don't need it unless you machine or lap the lugs. This is from reading and listening, not yet from actual experience. Don | ||
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quote: But doesn't size matter? The larger size of the weatherbys increase rear thrust on the bolt lugs. JerryO | |||
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quote: I have a 1943 M98K that I had rechambered to 8mm-06 Imp. I am shooting 180gr Balistic Tips @ 2960fps average, and have done so for more than 1000rds. I would think that I am coming very close to SAMMI pressure specs for the 270. No ill affects so far. I think the later M98k Mausers may have lacked in "finish" but not function. The gunsmith examined the action and pronounced it sound before rechambering. ------------------ [This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 01-15-2002).] | |||
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| <txhunter> |
As far a heat treating Mausers, It all depends upon the amount of carbon in the steel. If the alloy has enough carbon it can be successfully heat treated, otherwise it will accomplish nothing. 54K cup is equivilant to 65K psi in the 270win, the WBY cases maybe rated to 55K cup but that maybe equal to 65K psi or less. There is no way to directly relate cup to psi. 54K cup doesn't always = 65K psi. As far as I know no cartridges SAAMI pressure spec is above 65K psi. If the pressures are raised much higher you'll get above the elasticity of the brass, case ruptures become a real concern. The higher the pressure the more the brass flows like a liquid. If the pressure is high enough it will flow into any and all voids between the case, bolt, and action. | ||
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I have never seen a Mod 98 Mauser develope headspace except from abuse or by some smith making something out of one that shouldn't have been done in the first place...A few late war productions were sabotaged and got loose in the US at one time, I understand but never saw one. A good 1909, VZ33, 24 mil. FN, or a small ring G33-40 should never need to be reheat treated...reheat treating is akin to wizardrey in my book and I won't have it done....I have built a lot of 270's out of good solid Mausers and they are as strong and a whole lot safer than todays factory rifles which to my mind are a little hard, and tend to come apart in pieces when they blow. Re heat treating is for actions that have been monkied with by welding or have been in a fire that got hot enough to melt the springs etc., not a practice I recommend on either count. ------------------ | |||
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| <Don G> |
txhunter, Proper "heat treating" of a Mauser action is actually a process similar to case hardening, done scientifically in a carbon-rich atmosphere with specific temperature profiles. It will add the needed carbon to the surface layer of the the steel. Wildcat Junkie, Not all 1943-1945 M98K actions are bad, but some are. The guideline to choose pre-43 WWII actions is generic advice. If you get a good one it is as good as any, if you get one sabotaged by the workcamp Jews, you can be as dead as the Nazi they intended it for!
We differ on this one, always will. I will take Jerry Kunhausen's advice over yours on this subject. By the way, how did you abuse your 10.75x68? I seem to recall it had a headspace problem! Don | ||
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I would pay 10 times the cost of the Keunhausen Mauser book, not to have read it. The Walsh book is in part written to answer the nutty stuff in the Keunhausen book. Walsh does send a Mauser out for metal analysis, and show the lab results. He recomend against any alteration of the original heat treat. I have shot a number of Turkish 1903, Turkish 1938, and VZ-24 Mausers with loads that stick the bolt and make the primer fall out. I think there is plenty of safety margin. I have heard however, that a Spanish Mauser converted to .308 was found to have dented its bolt lugs and changed its headspace. THis is not a 98 action. | |||
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| <allen day> |
This from page 5 of Jim Carmichel's book, "The Modern Rifle": "Some time back I took delivery of three beautifully finished 1909 Mausers which had been built for the Argentine army. The rifles had never been issued and were as perfect as the day they left the factory. The only time they had ever been fired was the one time they were test-fired in the German plant. The metal in the receivers was so soft, however, that the single test firing had mashed the front two locking lugs into the receiver so far that the safety lug had come to bear". ......and from page 321: "Many of the earlier military and commercial versions are quite soft and therefore unsuitable for modern high-intensity cartridges. The thrust actually mashes the locking lugs into the receiver steel and after a few rounds a condition of excessive headspace develops. Unfortunately, this condition is most prevelant in the better-finished actions such as those made by DWM, Oberndorf, etc. This doesn't mean that the actions are useless, but they will have to be properly heat-treated by a specialist in order to bring them up to suitable hardness. Most gunsmiths do not attempt the exacting process of heat-treating a bolt and receiver but, wisely, farm out the work to large heat-treating firms that are properly experienced and equipped for the job." Just about all of the top gunmakers I know have Mauser 98 actions heat-treated. I asked David Miller about his opinion on this subject one time, and his response was, "ALWAYS!". As a consumer I have just one stance on this matter: If a gunmaker isn't bright enough to have Mauser actions properly heat-treated, he's not bright enough to be building me a rifle. AD [This message has been edited by allen day (edited 02-04-2002).] | ||
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quote: I agree whole heartedly with Mr. Atkinson if it aint broke DON'T FIX IT!!! | |||
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I must be a lucky guy 'cause I have two Oberndorf m1909 actions at my house now and the front ring where the lugs come to bear is as smooth as a baby's behind, except of course the faint wear and tear one would expect to see. I have also an m1909 from www.ellisonsmilitary rifles, all original, all numbers matching and a beautiful bore, arsenal refinished into my hands for $215.00. I fired four cartridges of Norma 7.65x57 w/180 grain bullets for 2598fps ave. The brass looked unmarked except the bullet was now gone. (this is the way the brass looked from my Persian m98/29 too) I beleive had there been excessive headspace there would have been telltale signs of that. Carmicheal has far more experience than me, if he got a bunch of m1909's he must have had a bad batch. Like I say I must be lucky to have these three and they are fine. ------------------ | |||
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Don, I thought it had head space but actually it did not, it was a brass problem (Bertram) and Ricks converted it to a 404 Jefferys. It was a recently purchase rifle, so you can scratch that flame. Re-heat treating Mausers is exceptable if they NEED it, few do and the good known models never need it...The problem being that some folks don't understand Mausers..They are soft on the outside and hardened on the inside and in certain locations..The reason being when a action is re heat treated it becomes hard all the way thourgh like a Mod 70...When she blows it becomes a virtual granade with pieces of metal filling the air.....A good mauser blows and she just puffs up and perhaps splits and perhaps the extractor ejectors etc. will fly off.... For a further education on heat treatment of Mausers I suggest you contact last years president of the Custom Gun Guild, Jack Belk and discuss the subject with him as he is a better source of information than your Guru, I suspect... I'm just saying that if it aint broke then don't fix it...I would re-heat treat a Mauser if the holes in the front ring were tigged up and heat got to it or if they were in a fire and the springs went soft..otherwise I would test them for hardness in a proper fashion and then make that decision. ------------------ | |||
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| <D`Arcy Echols> |
Ray You need to change your brand of coffee, When a mauser action is re-heat treated, at least in this shop, it is first annealed dead soft, then I do any machine work that is reguired in this soft state. Then it goes to a reliable company to be re-hardened with a .020-.035 case hardened skin, this leaves a softer core to give in the event of a melt-down.similar to the original process. The action is in no way HARDENED COMPLETELY THROUGH.I have had many, re-read that, many original mausers converted to modern cartridges,270,280,300 Win,338 Win AND 375 H&H that have set back and pocketed the recoil seats to the extent that the third lug was in contact with its seat. Sorry folks I'm not buying this one | ||
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Thank you D'Arcy, some common sense and not so common experience heard from. Chic Worthing | |||
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D'Arcy What company are you using for re heat treatment of Mauser actions? | |||
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| <Don G> |
Well, I guess great minds DO think alike!  Don | ||
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| <D`Arcy Echols> |
Blanchard Metal Processing,801-972-5590 mst | ||
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DArcy, Jack Belk told me to tell you that rehardening a Mauser is akin to painting aluminum siding!  I do have Mausers re-hardened if they are soft but see no reason to if they are not. I never have G33-40's, Puruvians, 1935 Chilian's redone and have never had a soft 1909 of Obendorf mfg. I have them redone if I double square bridge them or tig up holes in the front ring. I was told that Miller does not harden all his Mausers and his Safari gun was not hardened. I don't know him personaly but I know some of his best gunsmith friends. There are a world of fine custom gun guild members that do no harden Mausers. I know this for a fact. Maybe you gun builders should bring this up at the next meeting, since it is apparantly argueable among yourselves. To my knowledge or so I have been told, Westley Richards, Holland and Holland, and a host of others do not practice hardening...Johannson doesn't nor does Harold Wolfe.. I have asked this question on hardening to many of our top metalsmith and arrived at the conclusion some suspect actions should be tested. Also that no-one on this board is the last word on the subject, including myself. As far as the process and how to and what not too on hardening, I will take a backseat on that, but I have seen some warped stuff from some pretty good smiths over the years, and I suppose it happens to everyone....don't know. ------------------ | |||
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| <allen day> |
I only relate what Dave Miller said to me about 18 months ago when I asked him about re-heat treating Mauser as well as Model 70 actions, and his answer was "always". Some pre-64 Model 70 actions were heat-treated so that they were TOO hard, and these get annealed, reworked, then re-heat treated, and not just Miller understands and practices this procedure. Dave gets his current Model 70 actions from Winchester's Custom Shop, and these come to him in a soft, untreated condition. They get reworked and heat-treated after the milling work is done. Some of these gunsmiths exhibit little understanding of proper heat-treating, which to me is very surprising. But then maybe it isn't so surprising, since a high percentage of what they produce is never used - it's collected. As a persnickety consumer, I don't hold all gunsmiths' opinions in the same regard by any means (on heat treating or anything else), maybe because I've been burned on too many expensive turkey custom jobs, as have some of my friends. One established metalsmith stated on one board that he'd had a destructive molecular test done on an 1909 Argentine, which indicated to him that the carbon content was so low in the basic action that re-heat treating would do no good. What he obviously did not grasp is that proper (for a Mauser) re-heat treating has nothing to do with the carbon content of the action, rather it's a function of imparting (for want of a better word) additional carbon to the surface of the bolt and receiver. In other words the process out-sources carbon that is not part of the initial composition of the action. These old Mausers aren't Sacred Cows that can't be improved upon, after all. They weren't put together, kissed, then blessed by kindly little old men in angel costumes who walked on water after hours. They were beautifully-designed and produced (the pre-wars), and they were finished amazingly well, especially for the technology of the day. They were also created to function with calibers that operated at a lot lower pressures than do out modern cartridges. That being so, how in the world can obsolecent heat-treating that didn't always prevent setback even way back when be expected to work properly with modern calibers? AD
[This message has been edited by allen day (edited 02-06-2002).] | ||
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D'Arcy Thanks for the info, thats the same people I've used in the past and have gotten good professional results. | |||
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| <D`Arcy Echols> |
Ray, I will agree with you completely that most gunsmiths do not re-heat treat Mausers.I do and will continue to do so based on what little I've learned about the subject.David Miller is a good friend of mine and does in fact re-heatreat and your are wrong about the SCI #1 Elephant Rifle. Holland and Hollands shop manager Russel Wilkin, whom I also consider a friend and I have had a couple of long conversations about this subject and yes they also re-heatreat thier Mausers. Would you like to know which actions they use? or what Rockwell they request? No probably not.If you don't feel it is nessesary by all means do what you feel is best.You have many more years in the trade than myself and no doubt a better handle on the subject than me. As Ted Nugent would say " what do I know, I'm only a guitar player" | ||
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Check the left side of the receiver for the " Deutshe waffen-und Muniyionsfrabication. Berlin" If this isn't present it was made in Argentina & therefore worth less than if it had been made by DWM. Most of the 1909 carbines seen will be marked F.M.A.P. "Direcc ion General De Fabricaciones Militares" These were made in Rosario a town North West of Buenos Aires. Carmichel might have gotten hold to one of these. I really doubt if it was a DWM produced 1909.
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Wow! I just want to say, that this one thread is worth more than I could afford, in techical information. It's no wonder that I don't subscribe to rifle magazines anymore. Who needs'em, when this is available for free! Thanks Saeed!!! (and thanks to all who have posted here) ------------------ | |||
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D'Arcy, I'm certainly not doubting what you say or your skill in the industry, and again I say that no-one is the last word on this subject, as it is apparantly argueable and will be for years to come..I was assure by a high ranking gun builder and good friend of Millers that one of his SCI rifles was not re-hardened and I so stated, I personally do not know if it was or not. but thats a non issue on this subject... I use good actions and I don't use high intensity rounds that are too large for the action, perhaps this makes a difference. I have seen 7STW and such ruin Mausers, but I have never seen one blow plumb up, like a Mod. 70 will. Don't misunderstand, I love a Mod. 70 and the key to all this. I suspect, is load any rifle with sanity.. I will change my coffee, if you change your brand of tobacco. ------------------ | |||
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I bet Teenut is rolling over about now. Mausers were built using low carbon steel and were case hardened not heat treated. Also, I understand the case hardening process was somewhat involved. Ray is right. Unless it has been in a fire or has had something done to it that would compromise the original case hardening, why mess with it? Hell, I've set the lugs back in a M 70. It wasn't the action's fault. I commited a stupid act and got a stupid result. | |||
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| <allen day> |
I think you better re-read this thread, as you still seem to be laboring under the common misconception that proper reheat-treating is going to somehow "compromise" the original (and sacred) Mauser cased hardening. That is absolutely not true. The action is NOT heated clear through, nor is it heat-treated in the same manner as a Model 70 or a Remington 700. Proper reheat-treating absolutely will not compromise the origninal Mauser concept of being "hard" on the outside and "soft" on the inside. It will be "harder" on the outside in order to deal with modern cartridges without setback, but it will remain "soft" on the inside so that in the case of catostrophic failure in won't shatter, which seems to be the overriding fear. On thing I found out a long time ago: Not all opinions are created equal by any means, and with some of these gunmakers, I wouldn't take their word about much of anything. AD | ||
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I have got to agree with BW on this one. What a thread!!! Good luck and good shooting. | |||
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DArcy, Since I have not looked into this re-hardening thing in many years and after our conversation, perhaps I had better take a second look and do some investigating..All us old grumps take things at face value based on our experience and what we heard over the years from the older grumps of our time, but I have allways said that you never get to old to learn something new and I do have a lot of respect for your skills in the industry. The cost of hardening is very little and apparantly has come a long way in the last 30 years, so I am going to look into this with a lot more concern, can't hurt. I'm going to have a few done... I'll tell Jack were painting your aluminum siding and its looking real nice. ------------------ | |||
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I have drilled and tapped a dozen Turks and VZ-24s, and they were all easy. I tapped a Swede and it was hard all the way through. I thought I was going to break the tap all the way to the end. | |||
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| <THUNDER> |
Excellent thread. T | ||
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| <Crowkiller> |
Great Thread! Lots of good information. I have two questions: How much does the heat treating cost? Do you re-heat treat the bolt ater welding on a new handle? (The cocking cam surface would seem to bear the brunt of the heating, but the cocking piece engagement surface and the bolt shroud threads could easily get too hot) Thanks, Crowkiller | ||
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I am not a mauser heat treater. I do however heat treat a lot of other things as part of my day job and here are some of the things i have learned over the years. The carburizing of mild steel essentially turns the surface into a high carbon steel. The depth of the case is related to the "cooking" time and the temperature. It would be possible to carburize a Mauser all the way through but this is of course not advisable.The greatest depth I have achieved for the case is about.110". That was some heavy pieces of cold rold mild steel cooked in a charcoal filled crucible at 1850 degrees for 8 hours. Subsequent to the carburizing the parts are allowed to cool then hardened by heating to around 1500 and quenching in the the medium of your choice. Quench in water and it,s very hard, quench in oil not quite so hard but not so much distortion. Once a peice has been carburized it can be hardened, annealed, and rehardened without recarburizing. This if youare sure of the carburization depth etc. Color case hardening makes necessary a water quench. The part goes directly from the crucible into the quench. The part would be carburized at a higher temp then the temp backed down before the quench. The colors come from varying oxidization of the surface during the quench. If you are going to see warpage you will see it in a color cased action! I saw one of Martin Hagn's actions that had warped horribly in hardening with the sides bowing out .020 and twisting. I annealed this action for him to see if it would "relax" or at least be salvagable. It didn't and wasn't! This was color case hardened by a reputable heat treater who does many but sometimes things just go wrong. Given the many hours Martin puts into one of these things I thought he took it really well! Onother one was a Hartmann&Weiss square bridge action that was colored and broke everywhere! I theorized that it was either cooked too long (over carburized) or the action was an alloy that they surprised him with. Still don't know which. A 4140 action for instance cannot be color case hardened in the normal sense though it can be colored. I believe that Santa Barbra actions were 4140 by the way and the treatment for them is much different than that for the mild steel mausers. As for the mausers being discussed here, annealing would be mandatory for some of the work that is done and in some cases annealing would be the result of the work! Carbon steel starts to soften at quite a low temperature.In these cases reheat treating is obviously necessary. If I felt that an action was a bit soft I would certainly have it retreated or do it myself. One thing that facinates me with some of the mausers is how the receiver maybe quite soft everywhere except the locking lug seats and extractor cam. I'm not sure how they did this at the turn of the century on any kind of production basis. Regards, Bill. | |||
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| <Eirik> |
As far as I know, the parker hale actions were made by santa barbara, and I have done a chemical analysis of the steel in one parker hale action, and one FN made stamped "fuerzas militares colombia". The parker hale action had a very high content of copper, manganese and sulphur, and it was clearly a cast action. It was case hardened, so deep that it was glass hard all the way through on it's thinnest in the front ring. If blown up it would partially shatter. The FN steel was also very high in sulphur and manganese, and it had a very low content of nickel and chrome. This action was fairly soft all over, slightly harder on the locking sufaces, and the thread area. Due to the high content of sulphur in both actions, I would say none of them would be very safe should a cartridge case fail, regardless of heat treatment. Another action of unknown german war manufacture('42) was firmly held by the barrel in a vise, and we put the action wrench only into the rear bridge, and twisted it about 45 degrees with no effort before i broke. This is by far the worst action steel I have ever seen, it was dead soft, and extremely coarse grained. You could actually count the grains with your bare eye. This far I am very cautious to using mauser actions, and the re-heat treatment. My opinion is that every action to be re-heattreated should be analyzed to know if it is safe, and worthy of beeing customized. | ||
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Bill, I have a small furnace I use for reloading die's when I make them. I can go to 2100 deg.. I have thought of annealing Mauser action's before I work on them like D'Arcy mentioned. I have used Blanchard's before and would use them again to re-heat-treat them. I thought if I took them to 1470 and let them cool overnight in the furnace would do it. What's your thought? Also I have 3 chinese 98's I had to take to get the action's I wanted. I'd like to try hardening these as an experiment. I thought I'd pack them in a pipe with cap's sealed with refactory using Brownell's charcoal.I'd do the bolt's also. When done I wanted to blow them up to see what they would stand. I don't want to re-heat-treat anything to shoot, I leave that to professional treater's. What would your reccomendation be for time, temp and quench. Ron | |||
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| <JBelk> |
D'Arcy has it right. In order to re-heattreat the action it has to be annealed first. Most folks skip that step and mess up some very good actions trying to heat-treat case hardened mild steel actions like chrome moly. Carmichael and some others didn't realize, at the time it was written, that the Argentine *made* actions were not treated at all, in some cases, and the DWM actions were *only* case hardened inside the action where it was needed. (that's why they are easy to work on) I inspect all M98s for lug set back and lap *only* the inside just enough to make sure the surface is still level. If NOT, it must be corrected and then re-heattreated. If its still right, I barrel with no excess headspace and don't worry about them. As long as you don't allow any "running room" for the case the action will last another hundred years. Good to find where you're hiding out D'Arcy. Long time no see. | ||
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Ron, To anneal you wouldn't even have to go that hot. I'm sure that 1250 would do it. When I anneal I put the piece in a container along with anything to burn and use up the oxygen. This way you avoid any scaling. For charcoal I make charcoal by burning bone meal, powdered milk, leather, etc. I can simply pack the steel in straight bone meal then get a carburized piece of steel and charcoal to reuse at the same time. To carburize an action I would think that carburizing at 1850 for about 2 hours would be about right. You don't want to go too deep. I would then heat to about 1490 or so and quench in oil. I would treat the bolt in much the same way. Keep in mind that I'm really flying by the seat of my pants here since I've yet to try a mauser myself. I have a couple of Turks I'm intending to experiment with. I was once called upon to carburize and harden some pieces which had been nitrided. The nitriding had produced insufficient depth of hardness. I found that the nitrided surface seemed to inhibit the absorption of carbon by the steel. Another thing I have done with some sucess is to spray parts with moly disulfide then carburize and harden. Ends up a very hard super slick surface. I just did some trigger parts. I'll see how it works out. Regards, Bill. | |||
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Bill, Thank's for the info. I will try just like you advised. Check out this site http://www.newmex.com/ebear/metal/heattreat0.html#case A guy copied a lot of stuff from a 1924 edition of Machinery's Handbook. They had a lot more info on case hardening than they do now. I have 3 including the 25 th edition and they don't have anywhere near the detail about it. Thank's again Ron | |||
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Nice to see you over here, J Belk. Hope you stick around and continue to share your Mauser knowledge. Todd | |||
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