Ladies and Gentlemen:

Now who wants to re-heat treat and ruin a beautiful little lady like this:



Not really.

This little lady will become a classic pre-WW-II configured 7x57 AI with Lyman 48 second generation 125 minute slide receiver sight and a Lyman front sight.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

I have an argentine tucked away in a safe to someday become a 275 rigby, very nice.

Red

Would;
grinding receiver,Color Case treatment,drill& tap, custom B-Handle, 3pos.safety, ,lapping lugs,changing trigger,up spec. bottom metal,modified bolt release, welding square bridge on rear,shaping the tang, and new custom action screws... also be considered "ruining the lady"...?

In the past Ive heard the hypocritical crap from some here on AR, where its said that its sacrilege to alter certain pristine M98 actions, that is.... until it comes to building their own "dream" mauser, where they proceed to blatantly contradict themselves by modifying such examples.

I've always hunted down the most pristine M98 actions I can find when planning to build a custom 98 that involves considerable expense & modification.

Keep your 1909 as orig as you like,... I myself will have them modified[ground,shaped,H-treated] to satisfy my up spec. requirements.

http://i530.photobucket.com/al...1/norrieM98-270c.jpg

http://i530.photobucket.com/al...1/norrieM98-270e.jpg

Im sorry, an 1909 action on its own don't effect me with much historical sentimentality,
however, give me a complete unissued orig DWM1909 in factory grease and wrap, that I will surely keep intact/orig.

Dear Trax:

Now she (the 1909 Argentine) and I might just take your critique seriously. I'll have to ask her.

Actually, Trax, she won't care. She was already sporterized into a 30-06 (de-flowered some might call it).

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Dear Red:

Yup, you understand.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Have to agree with Trax. Do with it as you wish. Trax has about the same notion for what work would need to be done as I do. And hearing some on this board calling a sin to drill and tap a receiver when they had gone out and had double square bridges installed. Makes no sense????

I'm all for the D&T, 3-position M70 safety, better trigger, bolt handle etc. If I ever do another one I'd like to have the rear base contoured and leave the charging hump in place though. After seeing a few done that way I think it's a nice touch.

I like your action Yale, I'm sure it'll make a nice rifle.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:
Ladies and Gentlemen:

Now who wants to re-heat treat and ruin a beautiful little lady like this:



Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

From my own experience the re-heattreating of Mauser actions has never caused a problem. Pac Met is where I send them and usually six at a time.

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Have to agree with Trax. Do with it as you wish. Trax has about the same notion for what work would need to be done as I do. And hearing some on this board calling a sin to drill and tap a receiver when they had gone out and had double square bridges installed. Makes no sense????

I would like to have a reference to some of these threads because I don't seem to recall it.

I think that those who have used the very high grade Mauser actions (Marked with the genuine Mauser markings) have been very careful to use very high quality builders who generally leave the MAUSER markings alone and put the front rings on the barrel. ForrestB and Mr. Wiebe come to mind.

Moreover, I don't recall having seen anyone who has had double square bridges welded on. I think most of the high quality builders will not agree to weld on the front ring.

What I have often wondered about, but was never able to afford, would be some sort of sleeve mounts for both the front and the rear. Very thin, but very strong steel metal straps that wrap perfectly around the front ring and the rear bridge that have integral bases on them.
This way one would not have to do any drilling into anything, or at a minimum any fasteners could be installed out of sight and out of mind.

What's the difference in appeal, comparing a 1909 to an action like in the picture posted, which I attached 1909 bottom metal? It still has all the original eagles, and other markings. No Swastikas. No import markings. No rust or pitting. I also have a picture somewhere, but can't find it right now, of a VZ24 wearing 1909 bottom metal.

The difference to me is the 1909 most likely requires heat treatment, and the one in this picture does not.

Here's a VZ 24 with Argy bottom metal and a slightly reworked VZ 24 bottom metal. I think a lot of guys like to see the German DEUTSCHE WAFFEN-UND MUNITIONSFABRIKEN BERLIN billboard rather than the Czech ZBROJOVKA, A.S. V.Z.24. billboard.

And I think the factory machining is somewhat better on the DWMs than some of the other Mausers.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
I think a lot of guys like to see the German DEUTSCHE WAFFEN-UND MUNITIONSFABRIKEN BERLIN billboard.

And I think the factory machining is somewhat better on the DWMs than some of the other Mausers.

I think it's the same principal as some guys go for blonds with big tits, and disregard character, or rationalize that it doesn't matter.

The factory machining can be cleaned up. I found no difference in smooth functioning, slick feeding, and the general crisp feel of a well broke-in Mauser, comparing the 1909, and the VZ24, or the S42. I actually think the VZ24 is a bit smoother.

If DWM is such a desirable time and place for a Mauser receiver to emerge from, they did a half-ass job in my opinion. More attention to looks, and inadequate attention to what's not readily apparant - character. Just as with the blonde with big tits, somewhere/somehow it's gonna cost, and it's gonna hurt.

KB

Either that or they don't like eagles and have a problem with Swastikas.

Ladies and Gentlemen:

Hey, they all look good to me.

Does anyone really believe that DWM really screwed up on the contract 1909 Argentine Mauser actions and made the receivers too soft?

Jon Speed told me that they were all proofed at 4200-4600 atmospheres, approximately 61,740 CUP to 67,620 CUP. That should have shown a soft receiver, don't you think.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:
Does anyone really believe that DWM really screwed up on the contract 1909 Argentine Mauser actions and made the receivers too soft?
Chris Bemis

Whether they did it on purpose or unintentionally, it was a mistake, looking at it from today's perspective. I seriously doubt that they could have forseen that those receivers would someday be the topics of these threads, and utilized as the basis for custom art.

Heck, it even proved to be a mistake in their own time, given that some of the receivers were too soft to withstand the 7.65x53 ammo.

They are soft, are they not? Why is a good question. Given what I know, it was most likely a decision, (per contract or not) because I'm thinking they actually knew the technology at the time to end up with different and adequate results from the factory heat treating process. It's hard to say today, whether it (the decision) was considered a mistake in their day or not, but today (the decision to use) a soft receiver on a custom rifle is surely a mistake.

KB

I looked for some link about the 1909, and this is the only thing I found. It requires translation from spanish to english, and there are some glitches with the translation.

Interesting anyway.


http://translate.google.com/tr...2Fwiki%2FMauser_1909

Speaking of "why is a good question".

Why did Argentina choose the the 7.65 rather than the 7 or 8mm? And, why did they choose a trigger guard with a hinged floor plate?

From the above link:
Quote:
"Mauser 1891 Modelo Argentino . Gen. Paul Ricchieri , which was established in Europe to negotiate with the firm Ludwig Loewe of Berlin , the purchase of a repeating rifle (from the Belgian Model 1889 Mauser rifle, with some improvements) in 7.65 caliber Belgian x53 , which is called ' Model 1891 Argentine Mauser . In this model, bought about 200,000 guns (rifles and carbines) and millions of rounds, thus leaving the Argentine Army equipped with the rifle then considered as the best in the world."

Key words: "millions of rounds"
And suddenly an arsenal of rifles made obsolete with the 1898 Mauser. Best in the world one day, not the next day.

Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.65%C3%9753mm_Argentine

http://www.surplusrifle.com/ar...rbine/ammunition.asp

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Does anyone really believe that DWM really screwed up on the contract 1909 Argentine
They are soft, are they not?

You seem pretty convinced of that, but it is interesting that some very knowledgeable people disagree.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
You seem pretty convinced of that, but it is interesting that some very knowledgeable people disagree.

I am convinced based on what I saw.

I am convinced due to the FACT that many so-called knowledgable people see the need to reharden the receivers.

I am convinced that it is something to avoid precisely because so many so-called, and/or self-serving, and self-appointed experts in FACT disagree.

Does anyone here actually think the Argentine 1909 receivers are not soft?

It's kinda of a paradoxical joke, isn't it? Those claiming to re-harden for "insurance". Insurance for an unknown or unmeasurable problem, with variable solutions, using methodologys not used in any other firearm (receiver) application, for variable results that can't be compared to any other firearm in use, except maybe the early 1903 Springfields.

Hell, the "results" aren't even comparative from receiver to receiver. The average guy with a 1909 receiver has no assurance at all what he actually has. Some say it's awaste of time to test the hardness. Give the same receiver to 12 different experts, and get 12 different answers. "Results", achieved scientifically, can be repeated with assurance every time. This 1909 reheat/reharden thingy is about as unscientific as it gets, with something that goes BOOM, and it amazes me.

Bake a cake, following the same recipe every time, and you'll get the same cake every time. Bake a 1909 receiver, and not only do you not know what exactly you have when fully cooked, but you don't know what you had to start with. That's the paradox I choose to avoid when it comes to my firearms.

I read the word RUN within all that.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Would;
grinding receiver,Color Case treatment,drill& tap, custom B-Handle, 3pos.safety, ,lapping lugs,changing trigger,up spec. bottom metal,modified bolt release, welding square bridge on rear,shaping the tang, and new custom action screws... also be considered "ruining the lady"...?

In the past Ive heard the hypocritical crap from some here on AR, where its said that its sacrilege to alter certain pristine M98 actions, that is.... until it comes to building their own "dream" mauser, where they proceed to blatantly contradict themselves by modifying such examples.

I've always hunted down the most pristine M98 actions I can find when planning to build a custom 98 that involves considerable expense & modification.

Keep your 1909 as orig as you like,... I myself will have them modified[ground,shaped,H-treated] to satisfy my up spec. requirements.

http://i530.photobucket.com/al...1/norrieM98-270c.jpg

http://i530.photobucket.com/al...1/norrieM98-270e.jpg

Im sorry, an 1909 action on its own don't effect me with much historical sentimentality,
however, give me a complete unissued orig DWM1909 in factory grease and wrap, that I will surely keep intact/orig.

OH MY, what a beautiful rifle! Can I touch it? I would keep it in a glass case and wash the glass! That really is a work of ART. Thanks for sharing the pictures.

I personally prefer the VZ & 98Ks for that matter because the VZ has a wider entry way on the bottom of the reciever from the magazine box. The Arge is narrower & much more tapered and the feed rails are more narrow as it should be because the original cartridge that they were designed to feed; the 7.65x53 has more base to shoulder taper than the 7.92x57.
See the photo below .
This difference really becomes noticable when you see the difference a modern round with a sharper shoulder & less body taper; say a 284 feeds from a Argie vs a VZ24 or 98K.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Does anyone really believe that DWM really screwed up on the contract 1909 Argentine
They are soft, are they not?

You seem pretty convinced of that, but it is interesting that some very knowledgeable people disagree.

DWM H-treated the 1909 to lower spec[less cook time] to suite the vast stockpile of military ammunition for the model 91',
however when they fired the other higher pressure mil.ammunition that they also had in supply, it caused widespread lug setback.
Did DWM screw-up?..NO.. DWM did not fail to achieve its orig. aim, but the 1909 did fail to tolerate the other [higher pressure] military loads.
If the 1909 was orig. intended/required to cope with the higher pressure round, DWM could have accommodated that requirement in the orig. HT process.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

I think that those who have used the very high grade Mauser actions (Marked with the genuine Mauser markings) have been very careful to use very high quality builders who generally leave the MAUSER markings alone and put the front rings on the barrel. ForrestB and Mr. Wiebe come to mind.

Grind off front crest,cut away some front receiver ring & guts of the action,then weld a sqre-brdge on the rear[covering the mauser banner],... but leave "Oberndorf" on the sidewall, yep you guessed it,.... to maintain authenticity!

Trax and KB

Something must have gotten into you guy's fire water here lately. Must be that time of the month.

I just agreed the argentine was a great platform, not that I wouldn't do stuff to it

Mine (two) are both surface ground, drilled and tapped, bolt handles, modified bolt release, bottom metal sold to be replaced later with custom, one of them has a 2 position mod 70 style safety.

My dream is a pair, 500 jeff and 275 rigby, possibly single square bridge treatment, 1 blued and one color case hardened.

Mmmmm, good stuff.

Didn't read the rest of the thread because looked like it was going the whole "heat treat or not" direction and that never ends well.

Red

Dear D Humbarger:

Yes, I came to the same conclusion. The 1909 takes a bit longer to get a non-7.63x53 round to feed well. The 1909 controls the shoulder with a small angle on the feed rails, not the side of the case body like the other 1898 Mauser variants.

The 1908 Brazilian, VZ-24 and the rest of the K98k's use the same type of feed rails, that are a snap to adjust as evidenced in your photograph above.

I am building a 7x57 AI on a 1908 and a 35 Whelen AI on another 1908. Total time to get dummy rounds to feed from the original magazine into a barrel stub: 1 hour, not including opening up the front of the 35 Whelen AI's magazine.

But that 1909 pictured above actually feeds 7x57 AI's quite well, and only needed a bit of sanding to the angles on the front of the feed rails to smooth out the sharp almost knife edge which grabs the brass case by the way. Other 1909's that I've worked with were more of a pain in the ass.

Dear rest of the guys:

Okay, here's the list of gunsmiths who do not re-heat treat or re-case 1909 Argentine actions, unless they were annealed for engraving purposes: Pete Grisel, Duane Wiebe and Ted Blackburn.

I'll see if I can add to that list as time goes on.

As to the softer specifications for the 1909 Argentine action as far as DWM's manufacturing, please point me to some literature or other documents that show that reduced heat treatment specification.

I've heard that rumor now for three years, but no one to date can back it up with hard evidence in writing.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Trax and KB

Something must have gotten into you guy's fire water here lately. Must be that time of the month.

Not at all.

Have a look at an orig. 1935 Chilean mauser markings & features, then look at the Forrest/Wiebe mausers.

I stand corrected.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
If you need to borrow money, borrow from a pessemist. He won't expect you to pay it back!

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:
Okay, here's the list of gunsmiths who do not re-heat treat or re-case 1909 Argentine actions, unless they were annealed for engraving purposes: Pete Grisel, Duane Wiebe and Ted Blackburn.

the above smiths anneal to make the engravers job easier,
Darcy Echols will anneal to make machining/accurizing of the action easier in a rifle build, and reHT as a rule.

So the smiths above who mostly don't like the idea of reHT will give the nod to the anneal/ReHT process[and risks involved], simply to allow the application of expensive non performance enhancing embellishment, which could all go down the tube if HT warps/ruins the action.
Duane Wiebe will also completely ColorCase an old mauser , which puts it at risk of cracking/warpage and which progressively weakens the action steel....but as general rule does not like re-HT of old mausers.
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't get such logic.

quote:

but I don't get such logic.

Its called "give the customer what the customer wants", and it seems to work very well for a lot of people. Its subjective, and logical objective reasoning will never satisfy the craving to understand why its done.

If someone wants a rebuilt 1909 Argentine that has been heat treated because they like it and are willing to spend money on it such that a builder is willing to provide the services he believes best provide what the customer wants, thats it. Period.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

but I don't get such logic.

Its called "give the customer what the customer wants", and it seems to work very well for a lot of people. Its subjective, and logical objective reasoning will never satisfy the craving to understand why its done.

If someone wants a rebuilt 1909 Argentine that has been heat treated because they like it and are willing to spend money on it such that a builder is willing to provide the services he believes best provide what the customer wants, thats it. Period.

I understand giving the customer what he wants, that's what keeps the money coming in.

However what I DON'T understand is the smith then stating (to others) that the practice THAT HE JUST COMPLETED is unsafe. Bah.

Re-heat-treating isn't rocket science although it requires some level of experience and expertise. Some practitioners are good but others are terrible, just like in other things. Those who condemn an entire procedure simply because their particular experience (or, more likely, some experience that they only HEARD about) was bad are merely fooling themselves and anyone foolish enough to listen to them.

If the re-heat-treatment was really as unsafe and ineffective as some would have us believe, then why oh why do smiths and heat-treaters keep doing it without getting sued into bankruptcy?

Answer: it's only unsafe and ineffective when someone does something wrong, just like other things in life.
Regards, Joe

I have two questions on things that I'm unclear about:

1. since they're surface hardened, if they are surface ground is a re-heat treat required? (this in no way affects my decision to heat treat, am just wondering since often times in making a rifle off an old mauser they get surface ground)

2. If it is going to be color cased, does it get heat treated first then color cased, or is the color case hardening sufficient that the heat treat doesn't need to be done?

3. fine, one more question, if the action hadn't been surface ground would re-heat treating it ruin the crest? (too late but one of mine was gorgeous in the white no pits flawless crest, short story is that I had wanted it that way and was going to build an open sighted rifle with it. bygones).

It is always interesting when experts in their field disagree about things. variety is the spice of life.

The only real solution I see is for me to win the lottery and have D'Arcy and Duane build me rifles on original mausers with similar specs and in same chambering and then with my new found wealth hunt extensively with both and give results.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:


1. since they're surface hardened, if they are surface ground is a re-heat treat required? (this in no way affects my decision to heat treat, am just wondering since often times in making a rifle off an old mauser they get surface ground)

Removing the hardened surface on the outside of the action does not affect the strenght of the action. The only area of the receiver that requires a hardened surface is the inside of the front ring/locking lugs(as per a well known smith).

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
3. fine, one more question, if the action hadn't been surface ground would re-heat treating it ruin the crest? (too late but one of mine was gorgeous in the white no pits flawless crest, short story is that I had wanted it that way and was going to build an open sighted rifle with it. bygones).

They come back from the heat-treater covered in carbon and look like heck, but that is superficial and easily removed. It wont affect the crest.

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
I have two questions on things that I'm unclear about:

1. since they're surface hardened, if they are surface ground is a re-heat treat required? (this in no way affects my decision to heat treat, am just wondering since often times in making a rifle off an old mauser they get surface ground)

2. If it is going to be color cased, does it get heat treated first then color cased, or is the color case hardening sufficient that the heat treat doesn't need to be done?

3. fine, one more question, if the action hadn't been surface ground would re-heat treating it ruin the crest? (too late but one of mine was gorgeous in the white no pits flawless crest, short story is that I had wanted it that way and was going to build an open sighted rifle with it. bygones).
Red

1. The overall strength will be reduced very slightly since the outer skin will have been compromised to some degree, however this is NOT a concern except in cases of catastrophic destruction through stretching the receiver ring. IOW IMO no remedial action is necessary.
2. There are several methods of coloring that are called case-coloring/hardening but some are done at much lower temperatures and the parts are treated (no pun intended) differently, so no hard-&-fast rules apply here until you ask the particular practitioner about his particular method(s). Some are done for color alone, others are done for the surface hardness alone in varying depths and still others are done to achieve both goals.
3. What Jason said.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
I have two questions on things that I'm unclear about:

1. since they're surface hardened, if they are surface ground is a re-heat treat required? (this in no way affects my decision to heat treat, am just wondering since often times in making a rifle off an old mauser they get surface ground)

2. If it is going to be color cased, does it get heat treated first then color cased, or is the color case hardening sufficient that the heat treat doesn't need to be done?

I would anneal the action,then do required inner & outer machining/accurizing & mods-, then send to HT.
If action comes back fine, then do final outer grind & finish. I would want this[post HT produced] outer surface to ensure most precise align/concentricity with boreline of receiver. This is beneficial when attempting to install the most accurately/concentrically aligned [full contact] custom bases.

If (for e.g.)you buy a receiver from Hagn or HartmannWeiss it will arrive already HT. Color Case would be an cosmetic after thought.
Martin Hagn and HartmannWeiss have had receivers warp or crack from the CC process. Ive also heard of some Dakota10 actions that did the same.
Even as a cosmetic dressing,it is not very durable.
I would never CC any major pressure bearing/structural strength part of any receiver.

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:

It is always interesting when experts in their field disagree about things. variety is the spice of life.

The only real solution I see is for me to win the lottery and have D'Arcy and Duane build me rifles on original mausers with similar specs and in same chambering and then with my new found wealth hunt extensively with both and give results.

Just don't expect to be able to compare two 1909 based .375H&H rigs [or any other long magnum].
DArcy dont build such on std.length 1909, but will do std length magnum on 1909.


some people will suggest to use a later model M98(i.e.;vz24,FN) with better metallurgy than the 1909

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:Posted 20 October 2009 22:48

... I have familiar with two other FN's and two VZ-24's that set back dramatically and were shot with factory loads only....

When looking at surplus Mausers as candidates for your build use common sense as pretaining to good gunmaking.

Not every M-98 surplus action is a good one.

Get picky.

A good place to start is a good clean surplus rifle with all matching numbers with good headspace that checks out with guages.
This weeds out most of what you don't want.
This is because this rifle has been around for
years has been used not abused and is still in headspace indicating good original heat treat.
Remember all matching numbers is important here
because we want to ensure no tolerance change in respect to headspace over the years with untold use.
If it can pass this, chances are it will make a decent donor for a build as it's track record is fairly well detected.

Looking over surplus actions takes experience.
Knowing what to look for in terms of set back and general heat treat quality is done simply.

A flashlight and dental probe serve as decent tools for inspecting the seats. Setback indents can be seen and felt with the probe. This can be fixed and does require reheat treatment.

Use a new Nickolson mill bastard file to get a general idea of a receivers hardness. If the file skates and won't easily file the receiver and bolt it's good. Remember to put some effort into that file. Behind the recoil lug of the Receiver is a good place to do this.

Receivers that are hard and can't be easily filed don't usually show setback either.

I believe more in unstanding a given calibers trajectory under normal 50K to 55K pressure.
Overpressureing for more velocity will only diminish the life of all components involved for a small gain. It's just not worth it.

Be good to your Mauser and she'll be good to you. In fact she'll be good to your grandkids as well.

Satterlee

Dear Stuart:

Excellent advice.

I had to learn it the hard way, but came to the same conclusion as far as "the pick of the litter" with 1898 Mausers.

I just "need" one more.

Thanks for chiming in.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Would;
grinding receiver,Color Case treatment,drill& tap, custom B-Handle, 3pos.safety, ,lapping lugs,changing trigger,up spec. bottom metal,modified bolt release, welding square bridge on rear,shaping the tang, and new custom action screws... also be considered "ruining the lady"...?

In the past Ive heard the hypocritical crap from some here on AR, where its said that its sacrilege to alter certain pristine M98 actions, that is.... until it comes to building their own "dream" mauser, where they proceed to blatantly contradict themselves by modifying such examples.

I've always hunted down the most pristine M98 actions I can find when planning to build a custom 98 that involves considerable expense & modification.

Keep your 1909 as orig as you like,... I myself will have them modified[ground,shaped,H-treated] to satisfy my up spec. requirements.

http://i530.photobucket.com/al...1/norrieM98-270c.jpg

http://i530.photobucket.com/al...1/norrieM98-270e.jpg

Im sorry, an 1909 action on its own don't effect me with much historical sentimentality,

Traxx, who did the work on the above pictured rifle?
May we see a few more pictures?

quote:

however, give me a complete unissued orig DWM1909 in factory grease and wrap, that I will surely keep intact/orig.

No worries of that happening....

Mr. Kasimierz Nowak (no relation to my paternal grandma) died in 1937 of Pneumonia while weakened by malaria, not long after completing his incredible trek. The humans of Africa treated him better than the mosquitoes and their smaller still parasite hangers on.