Owned a lot of 721/2s but only 2 700s.
Recently purchased an almost new 700 DGR that has been rebarreled by Shilen to 300 H&H and a SAKO extractor fitted. The trigger is also excellent but quite light for a 300 H&H.
Now here's the odd thing. If you cycle the bolt just a 1/2" open .... it cocks and stays cocked even given the three foot drop test on the buttplate.
BUT if you just lift the handle and reclose the action it does not cock. You have to partially or fully cycle the bolt. Neither the bolt striker sear or the trigger sear shows any sign of being messed with. In my previous 2 700s both custom jobs in 244 H&H and 400 H&H, AS I RECALL, they would cock with just a bolt lift. The epoxy is gone off the trigger sdjusting screws, so adjustments have been made. I think something is wrong, but don't want to mess with it before some 700 experts weigh in.
Thanks in advance.

The bolt cam timing; the angled spot where the bolt handle and the receiver meet on opening, is too far apart making it necessary to retract the bolt a little farther to allow the cocking piece and the sear room to reset. Re-positioning the bolt handle closer will likely correct this. Dan at http://www.accu-tig.com/ can do the work. Or, you can live with it.

WP, now you really have me confused. I would think the locking jugs, not the bolt handle would control the position of the striker relative to the trigger sear. When the bolt is opened the striker retracts and should be behind the sear.
The bolt handle is fully up and touching nothing, so I don't understand how it's involved.

Had this problem once with a M70 Bull Gun when installing a Canjar single set. The cure was to file back the striker "sear" until it cleared the Canjar sear.

Talked with a Brownell tech and he said it is usually an owner induced problem by setting the overtravel screw too tight. So that's next on the list (I have never figured out why a bit of overtravel in a high power rifle is such an issue, but, then again, I also think the 1903 Springfeld two stage National Match trigger was the best and safest trigger ever made.)

More to follow and thanks for responding to my post.

Bumfarto, I don't know what the qualification requirements are to be a "Brownells Tech" is, but, if the over travel screw is too tight, then the trigger isn't likely going to reset no matter what you do, so I doubt that is the issue.

Pay attention when you lift the bolt handle, as it nears the top of it's travel, under normal circumstances, the bolt handle engages an angled portion on the rear bridge which cams the bolt assembly rearward several thousandths which should, again, under normal circumstances, allow enough room for the sear to reset. If you lift your bolt handle straight up and it does not make contact with that small angled area of the rear bridge, then the bolt is not automatically moving rearward to where the sear can reset, which then makes it necessary to manually do it which apparently you have to do to get it to cock.

I wouldn't recommend filing on your sear on this gun. Better to make it right.

FWIW, I find the Brownells Tech personnel most handy at deciphering erroneous search results from their web site, or describing products.

WP, I spoke with Dan (for 90 minutes, cool guy !) and he said it had nothing to do with the bolt handle. It was probabaly crud in the trigger group preventing the 2 piece trigger sear from rising or owner induced by messing with the triggers adjusting screws. He also said the 2 piece sear may have been installed incorrectly. (right to left, left to right).

He also suggested the Xtreme two stage as the Rolls Royce of two stage triggers (I prefer 2 stage triggers)

FYI, dealt with Brownell techs for at least a decade and have never been steered wrong.

I'm in the midst of a Unertl Condor restoration, but once that's done, I'll tear the 700 down.
More to follow. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by bumfarto:
WP, I spoke with Dan (for 90 minutes, cool guy !) and he said it had nothing to do with the bolt handle. It was probabaly crud in the trigger group preventing the 2 piece trigger sear from rising or owner induced by messing with the triggers adjusting screws. He also said the 2 piece sear may have been installed incorrectly. (right to left, left to right).

He also suggested the Xtreme two stage as the Rolls Royce of two stage triggers (I prefer 2 stage triggers)

FYI, dealt with Brownell techs for at least a decade and have never been steered wrong.

I'm in the midst of a Unertl Condor restoration, but once that's done, I'll tear the 700 down.
More to follow. Thanks.

Are you and Dan aware that the almost new 700 doesn't have the 2 piece sear? Good luck.

The 2pc sear quote was in reference to early 700 trigger groups.
The longer(LH) sear safety bar has a dimple to keep the opposite(shorter) bar captive.
If reversed the dimple will bind against the inside of the trigger housing side plate.

ANY Remington 600/660/XP-100/XP-100R/Seven/700/40X/Sportsman78/721/722/725 by design is cock on open.
To reset the sear safety bar to the floating connector piece in the trigger group you are COCKING ON CLOSED when camming the bolt into battery.
Lift the handle if the firing pin is cocked,pull the bolt aft 1/8",push fwd to reengage striker to sear safety bar & connector.

Once cocked,if there is backlash between the trigger lever & connector-YOU HAVE A DANGEROUS SITUATION IN HAND.


Depending on how you cycle the bolt will change trigger pull in excess of 3/4Lb.

Lighten the OEM firing pin & TIME it!

Well, I took the sucker apart and it has the one piece sear. Both the striker "sear" and the trigger sear are also angled so that when they engage, they touch, but not at the 90 degree angle found on a Mauser or 03.
WP you are correct in that there is a lot of space between the front of the bolt handle and the rear or the rear receiver ring. I can see that if the front of the bolt handle were closer to the ring or if the 45 degree surface on the ring (at the top of the bolt throw) was farther to the rear of the action, the striker sear would then travel behind the trigger sear enough to be able to recock the rifle by opening and closing the bolt. Given the cost to weld, fit and re-creokote the bolt, I feel the prize is not worth the quest. Two reasons:
1. I have never had a 300 H&H misfire.
2. Everything I have shot witha 300 H&H has been a one shot kill.

If one had lots of money it would be fun to redesign the whole ignition system to have a clone of an 03' National Match two stage trigger.
Easily stoned to 2.5 pound, 100% safe and would never pack up with dirt, old oil or salt air induced rust as the needlessly complex 700 trigger.

When one considers an 03, Mauser, pre FN M70, M-1 or AR, it's clear excellent triggers can also be simple and bulletproof.

It's a 300 H&H, that's why I bought it, not because I love 700s. IMHO the 721/2 were superior rifles in every way excepting the low comb stock model (designed for receiver sights) to smack one a bit with a fat scope on it.

Thanks for all the good advice. Always something new to learn.

Good to see you took the time to carefully look at the problem and see the cause of it. Would have been nice to see an acknowledgement that Westpac had it right all along as your earlier post seemed to put him down a bit while the Brownell tech was the man.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Would have been nice to see an acknowledgement that Westpac had it right all along as your earlier post seemed to put him down a bit while the Brownell tech was the man.

+1

For those of you who may not know or figured it out:

bumfarto = artshaw = 45-70 shooter.

All new screen names used by the first class troll and douche bag, Larry Root.

Westpac is a very knowledgeable smith and has done excellent work for me as well as Dan40x.

Bumfart-
The extraction cam surface in the bolt handle & rear receiver ring of a Remington is 35degrees not 45degrees.

Bolt handle to receiver clearance on a bolt action receiver has what to do with cocking a firing pin?NOTHING!
Primary extraction-YES.

Is the firing pin attached or screwed into the bolt handle?-NO!

Having a 1pc or 2pc sear safety bar means nothing,either.
Having a 1pc sear safety bar in a 721/722 trigger group means 1 thing-someone has previously screwed w/your equipment.

It all boils down to striker to sear hand off TIMING!

Apology if I slighted WP, (guess this was missed ? "Thanks for all the good advice. Always something new to learn.") he suggested I speak with Dan, I did and Dan did not suggest moving the bolt handle. Never pretended to be an expert on 700s which is why I asked for help (not old news personal attacks).
The rifle works fine as is. I have heard no one state the rifle is defective as is and should be sent back to Remington for correction.
Obviously the sear/striker design is different from what I am used to (03/Mauser) and yet is passed final inspection @Remington.
The sear rises as it should and holds the striker in place through several 3 foot "drop on the butt" tests, the "put the safe on, pull the trigger as hard as possble, release the safe, drop it on the butt" tests.
Cleaned the trigger to remove any crud or old oil and running it almost dry. It works just fine.

Again, thanks for the assistance.

quote:

Originally posted by Dans40XC:
Bumfart-
The extraction cam surface in the bolt handle & rear receiver ring of a Remington is 35degrees not 45degrees.

Bolt handle to receiver clearance on a bolt action receiver has what to do with cocking a firing pin?NOTHING!
Primary extraction-YES.

Is the firing pin attached or screwed into the bolt handle?-NO!

Having a 1pc or 2pc sear safety bar means nothing,either.
Having a 1pc sear safety bar in a 721/722 trigger group means 1 thing-someone has previously screwed w/your equipment.

It all boils down to striker to sear hand off TIMING!

Before any meaningful discussion can take place regarding the cocking sequence of the Remington 700 series actions, it needs to be understood that there are two separate sears involved in holding the firing pin in the cocked position. There's the primary sear, which is the sear everyone is familiar with which holds the sear/safety cam into position on top of the trigger/connector, and then there is the secondary sear which is on top of the sear/safety cam which holds the cocking piece in the cocked position. If either one of these two sears fail, the gun won't cock.

Contrary to popular belief, the extraction cam does "TWO" things, (1) it aids in breaking the initial grip the chamber has on the fired case for extraction, and (2), it, when timed "properly" with the forward edge of the bolt handle, moves the bolt rearward, the required distance to separate the cocking piece from the secondary sear so that the primary sear can reset. Even though this is rarely an issue with the general use of a bolt action rifle, it is nonetheless part of the design.

It is easy to test to see if your gun is timed, as designed, by tripping the trigger on an empty chamber, and while applying a little forward pressure on your bolt handle, bringing the bolt handle straight up and then straight back down. If the bolt fails to cock, the timing is off. Period!

Sometimes the timing is so close that the act of letting go of the bolt handle once it is raised, will allow the cocking piece to slide off the secondary sear, allowing the primary sear the freedom to reset itself. This again is easy to test by lifting the bolt handle straight up, then letting go of it and listening for the tell-tale sound, or click, indicating that the primary sear has reset.

Luckily, bolt guns are rarely operated this way as it is common practice to cycle the bolt after pulling the trigger, which, unless the over travel stop screw is set too tight, will allow the sear to reset.

Back in the day when quality control was more prevalent in these guns, they would cock by merely lifting the handle, but the newer ones are more prone to fail this little seemingly insignificant test due to current industry practices. Folks like Dan at accu-tig, who are set up to reattach bolt handles, should be able to re-position bolt handles so they do what they were initially designed to do.

So getting back to the problem which started this whole thing is, the reason Bumfarto's bolt isn't cocking when he lifts the handle is because the extraction cam timing is off.

Okay, whatever all this mumbo jumbo about timing is, it's really immaterial. The rifle cocks when the bolt is cycled, goes bang when the trigger is pulled, passes all the butt banging tests and will no doubt be a tack driver with a barrel far better than Remington's.
To do what an Mauser or 03 does when you lift the bolt, the striker has to move farther aft when the handle is lifted OR the trigger sear has to be moved farther forward. There appears to be some difference of opinion on how to accomplish this. Moving the bolt handle considerably forward would push the whole bolt assembly backward sooner during the opening cycle. OR changing the extraction cam's forward engagement point would do the same.
In either case it would cost a lot and really gain nothing. (In almost 60 years of shooting I have never had to recock a bolt action centerfire to get it to go bang, nor would any smart hunter do that. As with a self defense semi-auto pistol drill, "rap and rack", in a bolt gun, eject the failed round and chamber another.)
It works and it was inexpensive. A 700 is not a 721 and a 721 in not an FN, but an FN built with all the extras this one has would have cost three times as much.

Thanks to one and all for your time and advice.

I'm confused!! If you knew the answers, why did you post?

Butch, may I respectfull request you reread the WHOLE thread. I did not know the answers, asked for assistance and got it (especially my long phone conversation with Dan and Westpac's posts.)
NOW I know it could be fixed to cock with just the bolt lift BUT I have decided that prize is too expensive as it will have no impact on its intended use as a hunting rifle. There is no safety issue and the trigger pull is a crisp clean three pounds.
I am happy with the information and, just as a point of correction, I never claimed to have all the answers.
Do have a great day !

I'm still confused. I even read the whole thread a couple times.

Butch, I think (?) what is being said is the camming triangle cut in the bolt body and/or the position of the bolt handle does not move the striker sear back far enough to engage the the trigger sear with just a "lift & close" of the bolt handle. Either one (or both) could be modified to change this "timing" issue to make it work like your typical 03, Mauser or M70.
I have not owned any other "new" 700, so I can't say if it's a common issue or unique to mine or even important. After all "cock on close" works just fine on a ton of SMLEs, P-14/17s and M94/6 Mausers.

As a followup, I checked with a friend who has a late 60s 700 BDL in 223. His does recock with the "lift and close" of the bolt handle.