I just bought a Savage 12fvss which is a synthetic stocked 26" stainless heavy barreled varmint rifle with a true short action and AccuTrigger. Mines a 22-250.

I read the article in American Rifleman and decided to get a 300WSM take-off barrel for it and a magnum bolt face.

I called Savage to find out which stock would go with this barrel (different contour) and they told me I couldn't use that barrel (off of a 16bss) with my action because the barrel threads are different because one was a magnum action and one a standard action.

I informed my seller that I couldn't use his barrel and he told me I was full of $hit because he screwed a 22-250 barrel in the same action the 300WSM barrel came from....

What is the truth of this matter?

$bob$

[ 02-25-2003, 06:28: Message edited by: LDHunter ]

300 RUM will work, 300 WSM will not. 300 WSM has a bigger barrel shank than the "standard" barrels. Now I wish someone would tell me why.........

R

The standard shank is 1.055". From casual measurement (me and my caliper... ), it would appear that my 300 WSM barrel measures 1.115". Why? To have some more meat in the barrel, I would guess. FWIW, Dutch.

But the 300WSM is only VERY slightly larger at the base dimension than a 300RUM. Does that cartridge operate at higher pressure levels than the 300RUM?

The barrel change doesn't make much sense to me right now........

Rich

Just had a thought. Has anyone checked the new accutrigger equipped models? Perhaps there are more models with the larger barrel shank? FWIW, Dutch.

I called Savage about the possibility of retrofitting a 112 with the new Accutrigger. I was told that it is not possible because the action is different. Possibly this is why the barrel shank is sized the way it is because the action is unique and requires it.

bowhuntr

bowhuntrrl, Crow, LDHunter

Talk to Fred Moreo at Savage Sharp Shooters, sshooter@wcoil.com/, 419-695-3179. He will tell you the straight stuff about 10, 112 and 116 actions and what you can do about what. He is the main man for Savage accessories, swapping barrels, pieces and parts and the TRUE skinnypoop on Savage. Run a search on savage or SSS to get lots of info. I would say, up front, that if you didn't hear it from Fred it might be unsubstantiated bullshit or mindless guessing. Whenever I have a question about Savage's I have found Fred to, not only know the answer, but the why's and wherefore's also.

The basic reason for the difference is lawyer bull shit. Because of the difference in the diameter of the bigger case, Savage made the barrel tenon slightly larger and therefore the receiver ID larger to accommodate the barrel to give a lawyer safety margin around the chamber area. It is not needed in the real world as the barrel/receiver strength is way more than enough to handle the pressure. But don't beleive me, talk to Fred. Savage won't give you the straight answer either, again, because of the litigous nature of the american people.

Makatak, while I don't argue the fact that there is plenty of "margin" in the action, perhaps the margin is not quite as large as you think.

Dan Lilja wrote a few interesting articles about the larger based cartridges and the associated increase on the bolt lugs. You might find it an interesting read:

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/custom_actions.htm

FWIW, Dutch.

What does bolt lug thrust have to do with the discussion on barrel and receiver? Dan had an interesting article and the question of the ease of the bolt thrust calculation is up for grabs. The amount of area the bolt lugs cover including the root of the bolt handle and/or the hunk of metal behind the bolt handle is more than enough to handle the amount of bolt lug thrust for a normal load and even for a smelly drawers one. The brass is the weak point. The area in front of the case web where incipient case head seperation and stretching occurs.

If you calculate the two cylinders, the chamber area, and the receiver area you will find that the 70,000 psi of a normal round is spread around a very large area in relation to the case head and the bolt lugs. The yield strength of 4140 at Rockwell 'C' 20 is well above the yield strength of the brass.

I have a Rem 788 with 9 small lugs and I don't worry a bit about the bolt coming back and eating my lunch, of course, I have more than just a brain stem and after 50 some years of playing this game, I do know where the shit hits the fan and I don't go there any more.

I'm not sure where you are coming from or going to with your post but if you do the math I think you will find the Savage receiver every bit as strong as a Rem 700' "three rings of steel" or a Weatherby Mk or a Mauser. Look at a Savage setup and count how many rings of steel there are. When you do the math the standard Savage barrel ends up with 0.225" walls around a 0.550" RUM case. If you calculate the two cylinders, the chamber wall area and the barrel cylinder around the chamber I think you will find you don't have anything to worry about as far as the Savage barrel goes. 1" dia x 3.14x 2.39" = over 4" of area not including the shoulder and neck area just to be simplistic. That is about 175000 psi. What is the yield of 4140? Something over 83,000 psi. What't the worry, mate? Then add the receiver area surrounding the barrel. Or just measure and calculate the area of the bolt lugs and the handle root and divide into the 70,000 psi. Where is the sweat? The steel is the minor worry. Hey, do your own thing. I won't stop you or argue for that matter.

Ideas and opinions are just like assholes, everyone has at least one. I'm the first to tell you never to believe a word anyone on the net says including mine without first testing it out. I literally can't believe some of the misguided, unadulterated, mindless, miscreant. mojo bullshit I've read on forums, everything from welding to machining to guns. You have a good mind, think about it.

See. Don't believe a word I say. One too many zeros in 17500 psi. Makes a slight bit of difference. I can't beleive what a liar I am. Been consorting with lood wimin and low down men with sun burned necks.

Makatak,

Thanks for setting us all straight.

Rich

Makatak, easy there! I'm with ya! Still, the standard "3x" safety margin engineers are so fond of is very comforting.

I thought, just by looking, that Savage had also beefed the bolt lugs, but my calipers showed it was all in my head.

The point I was trying to make was that there is no doubt that there is much more force on the bolt lugs with the magnum bolt faces than with the standards. If the extra .1" of barrel shank keeps the margin of safety I am so very fond of at 3x or more, it's a good thing. FWIW, Dutch.

Yes. Pressure is a function of area. The larger the area, the more pressure exerted, unit area and all that happy horse shit jazz. Just like hydraulic jacks, auto brakes and TC Contender frames. .223 size case heads get away with some liberties but go to a larger size and you get lock-ups, then the Encore appeared. More meat, less flex, bigger case heads, mo'bigga boom-boom, no lock-up.

I have a cheap H&R single shot, break action with a huge amount of meat around that little .223 case. Works great, locks up tight and will handle pressures that will scare even me. You can get it in 450 Marlin which should be enough for anything around the states, but I've read posts that question rechambering to a Dakota or RUM case necked up to 45 cal to get that little extra whatever they are looking for. Maybe it can be done but.....

Now, I wouldn't try to chamber a Savage, yet, for a 378 Weatherby size cartridge because things get just a little too thin when you measure, precisely, the minor diameter of the thread root for either 16 tpi or 20 tpi and go through the rest of the calculations.

Although for a prudent person the 3x "extra" safety margin allowed should be sufficient, you do it first and let me see what happens. I like empirically derived data.

I've seen several engineers play with slide rules and later calculators and not understand what a safety valve is used for or not understand that some simple designs can't be welded ecomonically or actually because the way they designed the fitup, then get a look reserved for slimey things for even suggesting they need to go back to their drawing boards, from a mere pis-sant welder. I've had to whip out MY calculator and use the company design formulas written and drawn on company documents and drawings to get them to wake up. A long way around to say that lawyers design things nowdays not engineers. We need safe toys but keep the legal "profession" down where it belongs.

LDHunter, how do you like the 12FVSS? I'm considering one in .308 for target shooting and occasional deer/hog hunting. I know the gun is a bit long and heavy for hunting, but I'll probably shoot 100 rounds at paper for every shot in the field.

Also, did you have any trouble finding one? One dealer told me his distributer doesn't have any. Another dealer hasn't gotten back to me yet, but I'm beginning to think availability might be a problem.

Also, which issue of American Rifleman has the article that everybody is talking about?

Thanks!

I think it was the January issue of American Rifleman where I saw the article.

I've been reading and reading and reading and noone seems to know why (except Fred Moreo... see quote below) the thread difference.

The 300WSM seems to be the only barrel (that I could find) with the CRF action except for a "Safari Express" in 458 Win Mag (116SE).

The CRF action has a different thread than the rest.... Here's an exerpt (below the = line)from an email from Fred Moreo at Sharp Shooter's Supply.

=========================
When Savage came out with the 300 WSM, they did make some changes to accomodate that particular caliber.

The barrels are larger on the thread shank, 1.120" versus the standard 1.055".The also use a controlled round feed bolt head with a standing type ejector, not the plunger type in the bolt face.

It is possible to put a 300 WSM barrel on your action and it will work, however if you want to use the magazine you will have to have a WSM mag box, a controlled round feed type bolt head, and have slot machined into the receiver for the ejector, this is the only way they will feed. If you just want a single shot, it is just a matter of changing a barrel and bolt head.

At any rate , we can do the work.

The Accu trigger models are basically the same as the others, with the exception that the safety is different and the receivers are cylindrical in
the rear where the rear base is. The Accu trigger needs a little more stock clearance under the tang for the return spring, and we are currently making revisions on all of our stocks to accomodate either trigger version. As far
as action tuning, it is the same as the rest.
Fred