A friend has offered me an M95 Hembrug Dutch Mannlicher with a shot out barrel. Is it any more difficult to rebarrel these rifles than it is a Mauser or Springfield? I would fit a .264 barrel and rechamber for the original 6.5 X 53R (.256 Mannlicher).
Thanks.

There are two simple mill cuts required to clear the extractor and ejector if you exactly duplicate the original barrel.
The chamber may be a different story.
The original chamber has a slight version of the Weatherby double radius. You might have to have a custom reamer made to duplicate it. There is a 1903 (or there about) drawing of the cartridge on the net.
Even so I have RCBS dies and CH4D dies plus a trim die and none have the double radius configuration. So you might think about how you get your chamber to match the dies.

Hulsen-Horneber in Germany make the brass if you can find anyone to import it.

Thanks SR. I see Dave Kiff of Pacific Precision Tool lists the reamer.
Bertram also makes the brass, but has a reputation for dodgy quality for the price.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Thanks SR. I see Dave Kiff of Pacific Precision Tool lists the reamer.
Bertram also makes the brass, but has a reputation for dodgy quality for the price.

Bill,
Formed Winchester or Remington brass would be much better than Bertram's stuff. It works great in my rifle and carbines.

Buffalo Arms sells brass formed from .303 (remington) brass. Works well even though the rim is a couple thousandths bigger than original. I picked up a used set of 6.5x54 dies and they work just fine and were a lot cheaper than custom 6.5x53r dies. My experience with Bertram brass is dismal. I have a pair of 6.5's and a 375-2-1/2. The 375 and the 303 British are also options for your project. These make up into sweet, lite weight rifles!

Quality Cartridge also lists this brass at about $43 per 20. I've heard good things about Qual-cart.

quote:

I picked up a used set of 6.5x54 dies and they work just fine and were a lot cheaper than custom 6.5x53r dies.

I have multiple sets of both calibers.
There are subtle differences in the two cartridges and chambers.

1. The Dutch round has a radius at both the corner and filet intersections of the neck.
2. The Dutch round is about .005 larger at the head diameter than the MS round.

You can open up a set of MS or Carcano dies and make either work. The Carcano is a bit short so you need to set it to give the correct headspace and shoulder position.

The Dutch cartridge is larger at the head then the 6.5x54MS but the fattest web part is ahead of the extractor groove which places it further up the case them the Dutch cartridge or further into the chamber. Here's the two drawings:





Not sure the radius SR is talking about would amount to a hill of beans if it wasn't there.

So Joe I will ask the magic question

Where did those drawings come from and are they cartridge drawings or chamber drawings?
They are not official anything when they come from Steves pages.

The CIP MS drawing is available on the CIP site.
It has both chamber and cartridge drawings.


There are some official but very old 6.5X53R Dutch drawings here

The shoulder radii make this a distinctly different case though they do no bother to put them in the dies. However there are alway complaints of these rifles having excessive headspace so the complaints may originate from the original case design being ignored.

There is also another design oddity that I think was intended to ease feeding out of the clips. The case head is domed slightly in the original drawing. I think this lets the cartridges follow the curve of the clips.

Another thing to think about. The chambers actually measure 2.150" long - Exactly .040 (1mm) longer than the 2.110 trim length listed in many references.

Link to Dutch Museum - use google translate to get from Dutch to English

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
So Joe I will ask the magic question

Where did those drawings come from and are they cartridge drawings or chamber drawings?
They are not official anything when they come from Steves pages.

The CIP MS drawing is available on the CIP site.
It has both chamber and cartridge drawings.


There are some official but very old 6.5X53R Dutch drawings here

The shoulder radii make this a distinctly different case though they do no bother to put them in the dies. However there are alway complaints of these rifles having excessive headspace so the complaints may originate from the original case design being ignored.

There is also another design oddity that I think was intended to ease feeding out of the clips. The case head is domed slightly in the original drawing. I think this lets the cartridges follow the curve of the clips.

Another thing to think about. The chambers actually measure 2.150" long - Exactly .040 (1mm) longer than the 2.110 trim length listed in many references.

I agree with some of your points. Being the fellow is going to reload he can easily address the headspace condition should his rifle have it and as long as it doesn't have lots of excessive headspace.

Hard to tell about the shape of the head on the case, it may be to facilitate the extractor gliding over the rim of the cartridge. It's not exactly a controlled feed Mauser.

A case where I do think the radius is important are the Weatherby magnums.

I feel the op will be okay if he adjusts the dies to fit the case to the headspacing and trim them to proper length, don't you?

quote:

I feel the op will be okay if he adjusts the dies to fit the case to the headspacing and trim them to proper length, don't you?

Yes if his chamber shape is a reasonable matche the dies.

Some interesting info:

A lot of "hearsay" and very little concrete info on this.

Known Facts: In 1940-41, the KNIL ( Dutch East Indies Army) contracted with Australia ( SAF Lithgow) to convert a quantity of M95 KNIL Long rifles from 6,5x53R to .303 mark VII chambering. The Dutch Overseas Colonies were still adhering to the Dutch Gov't in Exile in Britain after the German Invasion of 1940).
Lithgow also tried to convert ex-Italian East Africa Carcanos to .303 as well, but the project (a) was too complicated) and (b) the Japanese conquered the East Indies by early 1942. The prototype Carcano conversions are now in the Lithgow Arms Factory Museum. The Majority of the 10,000 carcano m91 system rifles were delivered in 6,5mm italian chamber to Batavia, and disappeared during the Japanese invasion ( I have one, restocked in Indonesia, which came in a batch of 6,5-M95 Mannlichers)

The actual work on the Mannlicher M95s was "farmed out" to the Base Ordnance Depot in Sydney, and only the barrels were sent to Lithgow for re-boring, re-rifling and re-chambering. The Rifles were then re-assembled in Sydney, in-house proofed, and despatched as a single cargo in November 1941 to Batavia ( Jakarta). The Ship never arrived, and the rifles were lost ( probably to a Japanese Submarine, pre-warned by an extensive Japanese intelligence network in Sydney, no doubt assisted by the Soviet-controlled Waterside Unions).

The KNIL had also acquired many .303 cal Machine guns in the USA etc, between 1940 and late 41, and had even negotiated with Australia for a full production line to make .303 Mark VII ammo in one of the KNIL Arsenals in Java ( Bandoeng or Soerabaya?) [ Info from Australian Foreign Affairs docs dealing with Australia-KNIL Administration negotiations during May 1940 and February 1942 ]

Post-WW II & Indonesian Independance ( 1949): The new Indonesian national gov't found itself with thousands of Rifles for which Ammo was either obsolete or fast running out ( no more forthcoming from Holland).

Whilst 7,9mm,& .303 needs were furnished by Winchester in the early 1950s, with large Contracts ( Boxer Primed FMJ ammo), the remaining Japanese rifles ( 6,5 and 7,7) and Dutch (6,5) were used sparingly by Police & Training units as ammo dwindled away.

Some 7,7 T99 rifles were "converted" ( grinding of Bolt face) to chamber three cartridges ( 7,7mm Rimless T99, 7,7mmSemi-rimmed T92, and rim-filed .303 Mark VII ( rim reduced by hand to 7,7 Semi rimmed dimensions)...the case head- shoulder headspace dimensions are nearly equal in all three cartridges.

In 1953, the Dutch M95 KNIL carbines came in for a rebarrelling job ( or rebore and rechamber) to "7,7" ( ie, .303 Br) and some of these have surfaced in the USA since the 1970s. THis is an official Indonesian Conversion.

It is intimated in old documents, that the Dutch converted some M95s back in 1917, to fire the Dutch Schwarzelose MG cartridge ( 7,9x57R), and said rifle was named the M1917, for use by MMG crews (commonality of ammo)...no further info about what is probably a very small production lot has surfaced. In 1916-17, the Dutch were neutral in WW I, and had to "make do" , having been cut-off from both Germany and Steyr, their major suppliers. The other project was the "Short Rifle" conversion/assembly of 6,5mm rifles for trench warfare if necessary...also another small project.

There is no indication that the Dutch in the East Indies ( 1945-49, during the Independance war) did any actual 6,5 to .303 convbersions...they had re-equipped with .303 cal. British equipment and .30/06 Johnsons, and 7,9mm Mausers ( the Johnsons were the delayed 1941 contract.)..they did "cut down" some P14s and M17s to "Police Carbines" ( 18 inch barrels) and the Stocks are Marked "KP"/48 ( ? Koniglicht Politie? 1948).

All this info is derived from actual Rifle examples in my Collection, coming directly from Indonesia ( NOT through any US "Importer") and also examples of "converted" .303 ammo from the same source. Other Documentary info ( Foreign Affairs) is available on the Web.

regards,
Doc AV
AV Ballistics.

Brisbane Australia.

I see what you are talking about SR. From the link you provided:

Doc, many thanks for this fascinating information. It's really good to see you posting again. (I used to hang out at Gunboards a lot.)

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Doc, many thanks for this fascinating information. It's really good to see you posting again. (I used to hang out at Gunboards a lot.)

Bill, I copied that post of Docs from here:

http://www.iaaforum.org/forum3...?f=8&t=9686&start=15

Sorry if there was any confusion. I did post it with his name at the bottom so those reading it would know it was from him, not me.

Smokin, got it. My fault for not paying closer attention. Thanks!

I thought headspace in a rimmed cartridge like the 6.5x53r was set by the rim, not the datum line of the shoulder??

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:
I thought headspace in a rimmed cartridge like the 6.5x53r was set by the rim, not the datum line of the shoulder??

It is but it's better to set the headspace off the shoulder is the case is of a bottle neck design. This prevents case stretch. I good example are the Lee Enfields 303's. They have generous chambers and case stretch is a problem with them.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SR4759:
Joe,
I have seen the account from a collector that recounted the story in Doc Av's post about the mysterious submarine loss.

At this time I tend to attribute that collector's story to purely internet baloney. If you want what little real story there is you might contact Alexander Eichener of the Carcano site. He seems to know more about these than anyone and he does speak German. Another collector is John Wall. There is a definitive book on the subject but I believe it is long out of print and is in German. I don't even know anyone with a copy of it.

I suggest these men because they are long time collectors and have a large net work of other collectors that they deal with.

The facts that are known are:
1. There are some rifles that have been converted to .303 British and apparently have a normal chamber. You can see some of these for sale now and then and they are normally in really crappy condition.
2. I have seen fired ammo from one half assed rework in which the rifle was rebored and rechambered as is. The Dutch chamber is fatter than the .303 so the case fire forms into a goofy double shoulder shape consistent with a home blacksmith operation that no arsenal would claim to have built.

3. The Dutch also experimented with their own large caliber round in 7.9X57R. This was a rimmed 8mm round nearly identical to the .303 British except for the bullet diameter. This round is supposed to be distinctly different than the German 7.9X57R however some sources claim that some of the Dutch ammo was packed with the Lufwaffe survival drillings.
I think details of this can be found on the legermuseum site but must be translated to English.

To add to this confusion is the 7.7 Jap machinegun round which was used in Japanese naval aircraft- which is none other than the .303 as copied by the Japanese.

Finally there is the 1904 Model of the Steyr rifle which was chambered in 8X57 and used the GEW 88 Packet clips.

Anyway that is straying off of the subject of the 6.5X53.5R (note the extra half mm but it is the same round)

It is an interesting story about the follies of nations and experts.
The Dutch wound up with a rifle cartridge that had poor wounding characteristics. It was also a poor machine gun round. The Schwarlose machine gun also turned out to be a poor machine gun - originally chambered for a poor cartridge. I believe the Schwarzlose was eventually fielded in an 8mm rimmed version.

The 6.5 Steyr rifle was made in several versions for the land and naval forces. However most were cut down to carbine configuration.
Then the silly Dutch proceeded to have about 30 slightly different versions of the carbines.
One for bike mounted troops, one for engineers, one for calvary, etc etc.
It appears they eventually economized themselves into having a huge variety of carbines and a non-functional army.