What is supposed to take place as a round is stripped from the magazine and chambered on a "Classic" Model 70?

On my pretty good recently-back-from-Winchester-Product-Service 375, if I work the bolt very slowly (trying to be quiet) the cartridge moves forward until the feed ramp lifts the nose of the bullet, then further forward, nose up, until the bolt is about midway between the front and rear of its travel. At this point, there is a slight resistance. If I push forward just hard enough to overcome this resistance, the cartridge pops up with a thunderous 'click', and the woodchucks all duck for cover , with the rim of the cartridge ending up underneath the extractor claw. Pushing the bolt the rest of the way forward chambers the round smoothly and quietly.

Is the cartridge supposed to pop up suddenly like that and make that loud 'click', or should it slide up the bolt face gradually and quietly as the bolt comes forward?

I have heard that some PH's like to have clients carry their rifle with an empty chamber, and now I'm wondering how you're supposed to catch a buffalo unawares after making a loud noisy click like that so close to him.

Any help on the feed question or the buffalo question would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

H. C.

H.C.,

I've never tried to quietly chamber a M70. I'll have to experiment with that.

If you are hunting buffalo with a PH who won't let you chamber a round as soon as you get out of the truck. Get another PH.

Regards,

Terry

I just cycled my pre-64 M-70 .375 H&H with 300 gr Silvertip factory loads.

There is also a loud click when the bolt is half way as the rim of the cartridge snaps up onto the bolt face. When the magazine is full (4 rounds) it's harder to push the bolt closed due to the spring compression. But the click happens going slow or not.

This rifle is stock and quite in quite new condition for it's age.

The amount of noise or "click" can be greatly reduced by dropping a round in the chamber instead of feeding from the magazine.

While I have not been to Africa (and I am not going due to the expense) I would insist that I have my rifle loaded and in fact I would have the magazine full and then slip one in the chamber for a five round capacity.

On stuff like this I can handle people and no "PH" is going to roll me over.

On old M-70's, a friend who has been hunting in Africa twice saw my like new M-70 and he said "when a PH sees that rifle he will give you his truck for it".

H.C,

I just checked my pre-war M70 .416 Rem Mag and my pre-64 M70 .375 H&H, both have the "click" you describe.

Regards,

Terry

My guess is your noise comes from when the bolt strips the round off the follower and grabs ahold with the extractor claw.
Now I think it was Don who said just throw one in the chamber instead...well...on a control round feed gun you can't do that and close the bolt.
You can learn the method taught German soldiers and recently described in the current issue of American Rifleman. That is place left hand under action and with finger press on claw extractor just behind the ring collar holding extractor on bolt and slowly rotate bolt handle down. This will allow the extractor to pop over the rim of the brass and into the extractor grove.
I would think this would be quite and also the way to single load a CRF action without taking it from the magazine.
See if I am correct...

Mims,

On all of my M70 Classics I can throw a round in and the extractor will snap over. I haven't built the 9.3x62 (relax! ) on my Pre-64 action yet, so I cannot say if it will or won't. Your probably right. It won't. They might have done something differently on the new models.

Harry,
If you can't drop a round into the chamber and close the bolt on it with a Model 70 or Mauser 98 etc., you're extractor needs some work. If it doesn't snap over the case it needs to have the nose of the extractor ground and polished down to the proper angle by a qualified gunsmith until it does. You're rifle should at no time be unable to perform this operation. Have you had a gunsmith work on this rifle before? This is something that unfortunately Winchester has not been checking out on their rifles and even companies like Dakota have had similiar problems. It's not uncommon at all for this malfunction to be taking place, but if you ever want to do any serious hunting, I'd suggest that you get it fixed pronto.

There IS a difference in the M70's and Mausers. The Mausers were not designed to single feed except by the method mentioned earlier which is to depress the extractor so as to raise the claw to enable it to get over the extractor groove in the case. The M70's were designed to snap over the groove. Many don't. They can also be single fed if they do not, a la Mausers.

Do you guys get that "click" when its the last round in the mag. I'm thinking the noise is made by the next round hitting the lips on the mag when the chambering round leaves the mag completely. Walker

Both the M-70 and the 98 Mauser can be tinkered with and they will close on a round BUT you have tinkered with one of Paul Mausers designs and that ain't smart..You just weakened the positive extraction feature...A sticky or stuck will cause the modified extractor to override the rim on ejection as well as it does going in.....

Besides it is just as fast to push one in the magazine as it is to drop it in the chamber and it is less likely to jam up if you fumble, you still have to close the bolt for pete sakes...

At one time all my Mausers and M-70 were so modified, I changed them back to original a number of years ago, after a couple of incidents.

I tried this on my custom pre-64 M70 in 450 Ackley. The cartridge smoothly slides up the rail and follower and when the bullet nose slides far enough up into the feed ramp, the rim of the cartridge gently slips under the extractor making no noise at all. Feeding feels like it's on ball bearings. No snap, no crackle, no pop. Oh by the way, this extractor was specifically shaped by me so that it won't snap over a cartridge just dropped in the chamber. It will also reliably extract a grimy cartridge on a hot day at near the pressure limit for the Ackley. -Rob

Mims,

Both of my M70's feed a "topping off" round with no problem. Of course, I'm sure Roger Biesen had something to do with that when he built them.

Regards,

Terry

Then how do you get the extra round in the chamber?

You don't drop the floor plate do you?

The M-70 CRF will snap over any rim. I never saw one that would not.

The snaping of the rim up to the center of the bolt is what causes the noise. I would call this stick slip if I were a tribologist. Polishing the relevant surfaces would be the answer to this non problem. I hunt with my rifles loaded! Is this unique?

[ 07-25-2002, 06:51: Message edited by: Don Martin29 ]

I can't believe it, but I've gotten some strange looks from certain people when I tell them I always hunt with a round in the chamber. What the hell do they think safeties are for. Yeah, I know anthing mechanical can fail. That's why we were all (well, some of us) were taught the "Ten Commandments of Gun Safety" early on, right?

If you just have to have the last possible round in the gun because those " meadow grizzly's" are charging, then yes open your floorplate and drop one in! Stand your ground and blaze away till you run dry!

Don,
A simple way is to use your finger to depress the extractor real hard as you close the bolt, and that will lift the extractor and let it slip over the rim of the case.....this can be done on any unmodified Mauser or Win. M-70...Paul Mauser didn't leave anything for you guys to chip at...

Guys:

Here is a bit of trivial Mexican technology (remember the sophisticated Mexican carry?...) to put that extra round into the chamber of a CRF Win 70 with a full magazine and without fumbling with the extractor. It is really a very simple procedure that works with all my 3 Win 70�s (2 Pre-64�s one 416 Super Express...). I have even shown this very simple trick to surprised African PH�s:

It is easier to show than to explain, but bear with me...

For a right handed person with a RH rifle:

1) Open the bolt all the way.
2) Fill the magazine with its maximum # of rounds.
3) Slide the "chamber" round on top of the last round of the magazine, just the way you would proceed if there was additional capacity in the magazine for one more round. Leave it there...
4) Next put the palm of your left hand below the magazine on the bottom plate (like a target shooter would do...) and surround the rifle with your left hand in such a way that your 4 fingers from this same left hand can touch the "chamber" round from above from the bolt side.
5) Now comes the David Copperfield trick that was revealed to me by the ghost of Paul Mauser during a dream: With the middle and fourth fingers of your left hand push the "chamber" round down against the rounds in the magazine. Be sure to push uniformly at the middle of the "chamber" cartridge, not at the bullet end or neck. It will "give", i.e. go down, approximately 5 mm. (Non-metric fundamentalists please do the appropriate conversion here...). With your left hand fingers gently pushing the "chamber" cartridge down 5 mm, use your right hand to SLOWLY close the bolt on the cartridge in the usual way. Release the downpressure once the bolt touches the cartridge rim. The follower spring will push the "chamber" cartridge into the extractor from below, there is no need for it to "jump" the rim. Close the bolt in the usual way...

Neat, huh...??!!

Now really..., how many of you knew this simple trick?

Regards,

Antonio

Sure Antonio! As a teanager I played around with my dad's FN mauser .270. I had no ideal how many rounds the magazine held until I loaded it but I noticed that the top round would go down alittle but not enough for another round. So once I understood that the extractor had to ride over the rim(I chamber fed a round and worked the bolt hard to close) I just pushed the butt end of the chamber round down into the magazine a bit with my left thumb(fingers under floor plate)and slid the bolt farward with my right hand; yes more awkward than the left hand wrap around.