What is the COL of 8X68S

09 February 2002, 11:24

wildcat junkie

Is it possible to fit this (8X68S)into a "standard length" M98 by lengthening the magazine and modifying the feed ramp? My calculations come out to about 2.68" OAL for the case, about .060" longer than .300 win mag, but substantialy shorter than .300 H&H.

Just what is the PRACTICAL COL for chambering in a "standard length" M98 without "lengthening" the action itself?

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

[This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 02-09-2002).]

09 February 2002, 12:13

<chris_m>

According to RCBS Load the COL for the 8x68s is 3.425ï¿½ that would work in a standard mauser mag with the minor if any modifications. The length that you have calculated is on par with a 375 H&H which can be made to fit in a standard mauser but is not recommended.

09 February 2002, 13:55

Stonecreek

I wouldn't want an 8 X 68S in anything shorter than a 3.6" magazine, otherwise you're looking at pretty deep bullet seating.

But why would you want an 8 x 68? You can duplicate its performance with an 8mm Remington, or if you want something more exotic, build a wildcat 8mm on the Remington Ultramag case. Besides, the ultramag case will fit a regular .530 bolt face without alteration.

09 February 2002, 14:02

ALF

09 February 2002, 23:10

Andre Mertens

One could also add that the 8x68S case is devoid of that -unnecessary if not for marketing reasons- belt. It feeds like butter and even shoots harder than the .300 Win, being very close on the heels of the .338 Win. It is accurate too (I tried a friend's Sauer 200 and shot 5 into .48 MOA). The only thing that refrains me from adding a 8x68S to my battery (it could replace my .300's and .338... - only joking of course, the real reason would be to buy/own one more rifle)is the low availability of reloading components. But that may change with future demand (look at the late 9,3x62's success).

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Andrï¿½

10 February 2002, 08:36

wildcat junkie

quote:
Originally posted by Andrï¿½ Mertens:
The only thing that refrains me from adding a 8x68S to my battery is the low availability of reloading components. But that may change with future demand

Where does one get brass for the 8x68S?

What sort of velocity is realistic with a 200gr bullet?

Does anyone have case dimensions (including rim diameter)?

Would anyone happen to know the water capacity of the case in grs.?

Where can I find load data?

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

10 February 2002, 09:15

Curtis_Lemay

Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't RWS just about the sole supplier for brass for the 8x68S?

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When in doubt, do a nuclear strike.

10 February 2002, 11:45

carcano91

quote:
Originally posted by Stonecreek:
But why would you want an 8 x 68? You can duplicate its performance with an 8mm Remington,

Congrats.
You just earned the "Alfred E. Neuman of the week award" for patently absurd, yet obvious humor.

Carcano

10 February 2002, 12:32

dan belisle

Rim dia. is .572", case base dia. is .524", case length is 2.657", length to the beginning of shoulder is 2.094", length to end of shoulder is 2.323", shoulder dia. is .478", neck dia. is .360". speeds of around 2800-2900 fps. with a 200 gr bullet. Load data is in the A-square manual and the Nobel Sport manual. Brass availability I'm not sure. RWS I suppose. Also S & B in Europe. I don't think norma loads for it, at least I've never seen a box. I'm tempted to build one though. I came across a set of RCBS dies for this caliber for $50 Cdn. The 8mm Rem Mag has a lot more case capacity, and therefore the possibility of more speed with equal bullet weights. But the 8 x 68 doesn't have a belt, and doesn't need a true magnum length action. I have to agree with Stonecreek. The col from two manuals I have is listed as 3.425". Add bullet length to that and 3.65 seems like a sensible measurement. You can open up a 98 action to that, with filing on the magazine box and a small amount of opening and polishing at the feed ramp area. I think it's not a tough conversion, and one that bears looking into. Just to have something differant in the 8mm gene pool. The availability of brass is worrisome, but the European fellows on the board seem to have some good contacts, so this isn't insurmountable. Hmmmmm. - Dan

10 February 2002, 13:54

Scout

In any of the manuals do they list barrel length? I can see where a much longer barrel would shine for this cartridge. With a magnum potential, a 26 inch barrel would be the favor.

Is there a particular trigger guard that is large enough to handle this length? I have measured mine, and it is 3.315 Looks like I would want more than this guard can give. Total length of this vz24 is 3.507.

In the posts above I have seen you list 3.650 as a minimum desired length.... Also how much real modifications are required to let the length feed into a standard length opening again, my action opening measures 3.441?

The load data states approx. 2800 fps for a 200-grain bulletï¿½. I would think you could push it a lot faster than thatï¿½ More like 3200 fps with Reloader 22 give or takeï¿½..

Scoutï¿½.

11 February 2002, 01:52

carcano91

Hello Dan - if I may add a little bit ?

quote:
Originally posted by dan belisle:
Rim dia. is .572", case base dia. is .524",

While published (Nobel Sport), the first value is a printing error.
Rim dia. is 13,00 mms (.512), case base dia. is indeed 13,30 mms (.524").

quote:
Load data is in the A-square manual and the Nobel Sport manual.

And in a couple of others, too.

quote:
Brass availability I'm not sure. RWS I suppose. Also S & B in Europe. I don't think norma loads for it, at least I've never seen a box.

Neither Sellier & Bellot nor Norma load for it. Factory ammo comes from RWS and Hirtenberger. RWS offers 3 different loads, Hirtenberger also 3. Since the 8 x 68 S is far more popular then the 9,3 x 64, brass will likely remain available for a long time.

quote:
I'm tempted to build one though. I came across a set of RCBS dies for this caliber for $50 Cdn. The 8mm Rem Mag has a lot more case capacity, and therefore the possibility of more speed with equal bullet weights. But the 8 x 68 doesn't have a belt, and doesn't need a true magnum length action.

Theoretically, this may be correct. All gun manufacturers that I know of, however seem to use different actions for the 8 x 68 S.

Carcano

11 February 2002, 02:53

carcano91

quote:
Originally posted by scout:
In any of the manuals do they list barrel length?

The 8 x 68 was indeed designed for long barrels. The following test barrels were used by the reloading manuals:

RWS/DNAG: 650 mms
DEVA: 650 mms
Vihtavuori: 650 mms
Vapenjournalens Ladebok: 660 mms
A-Square: 660 mms
Hornady: 660 mms
Nobel Sport: 610 mms

quote:
The load data states approx. 2800 fps for a 200-grain bullet... I would think you could push it a lot faster than that... More like 3200 fps with Reloader 22 give or take...

The reloading manual data adhere to the CIP maximum pressure standards. Since there are no "old and weak" 8 x 68 rifles around (which possibility the industry pessures in other cartridges' cases take into consideration), this represents the safe maximum.
It is easily possible to top the velocities; however, there is a mere small engineering problem involved as far as the rifle action is concerned, namely to stop the dissipation of liquid brass into the action and the shooters face...

Regards,
Carcano

[This message has been edited by carcano91 (edited 02-10-2002).]

11 February 2002, 03:04

LongDistanceOperator

Wildcat Junkie-
I just bumped up an old thread of mine in the Reloading Forum.

11 February 2002, 04:48

snowman

Wildcat and others Yes the 8x68 fits into a 98 action. I have an 8x68 and its little brother the 6.5x68. You will never find brass at wally world but it is availible.In my opinion the RWS is the best.Hertinberger?? makes it and Sellier Bellot made it as well.I have also made it from 300 Win mag but that is a bit of work.I hear rumours that Norma is considering making brass but who knows? Old Western Scrounger usually has brass in stock. I am getting a little over 3000fps with RL19 and the 200gr partion or the 200 gr Speer.It feeds like dream with no belt.Ten years ago there wasn't many bullets that would stand up to the velocity of the 8x68 or the 8mm Rem but we now have the Nosler partion,Swift A frame and the Barnes X. The 200 Speer is also pretty good.For lighter stuff Nosler has a ballistic tip in 8mm and the Sierra 175 gr holds together better than one would expect.Sierra & Hornady also make 220 gr slugs that are good.This calibre is effective on game and deserves to be more popular that it is.

11 February 2002, 05:02

dan belisle

Carcano, thanks again for the info. I was on the Old Western Scrounger site last night and he lists RWS ammo and brass for the 8 x 68. Horribly expensive. The Hirtenberger stuff seemed a lot more reasonable. Does anyone know anything about the quality of this brass? I think to get that much length out of a standard 98 magazine box, you would have to open up (probably replace) the rear of the magazine box. File the front open as weel and modify the feed ramp to match. Then the bolt stop and ejector would have to be modified as well, to try and get the bolt a little farther to the rear. That would allow you to take a small amount of metal from the receiver at the point where the rear of the magazine box meets the receiver. All in all, you should be able to get about .03 out of there without too much trouble. As for the hot loads, unless the action has been re-heattreated, pushing the envelope on some of these old actions is an iffy proposition. I'm not saying any one action in particular, because I don't know, I just think you should proceed with caution. 3200 fps in an 8mm with a 200 gr bullet is really 8mm rem Mag territory. I think it's very do-able, and would make an interesting project. I may just have to try one. FWIW - Dan

11 February 2002, 09:07

carcano91

quote:
Originally posted by dan belisle:
RWS ammo and brass for the 8 x 68. Horribly expensive. The Hirtenberger stuff seemed a lot more reasonable. Does anyone know anything about the quality of this brass?

You are welcome. Lutz Moellers comments on his experiences with 6,5 x 68 brass from Hirtenberger were less than entirely positive. In my feeling, the brass is a bit on the soft side. Their loaded ammo is more (!) expensive than RWS.

quote:
3200 fps in an 8mm with a 200 gr bullet is really 8mm rem Mag territory. I think it's very do-able,

Definitely not. Only if pressure and safety were no concern. Read the manuals on the 8mm Rem Mag.

Carcano

11 February 2002, 23:01

aHunter

Brass is made by RWS and Hirtenberg. There is no 8x68S ammo according to my Sellier and Bellot catalog. Would be reasonably priced for sure, and a good source for brass.

I think the .300 Win mag case is shorter than 68 mm, so perhaps Weatherby brass could be used. Still the 9.3x64 case is essentially a Belted Magnum case with belt turned off. The 8 and 6.5 x68 (S) case is BIGGER!

Good shooting and I would like a Mauser 8x68S, too!

Hermann

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12 February 2002, 03:01

dan belisle

Sorry Carcano, I worded that wrong. I DON'T think 3200 fps from a 8mm x 68 is do-able with that bullet weight (unless you want to blow it up). I DO think that fitting one into a 98 action is. - Dan

12 February 2002, 08:39

Scout

I might have stretched the potential a little bit (3200), but I truly believe this to have a lot better than the posted FPS. The posted FPS is only little better than a standard 8X57. I would need to look up all the load data to verify, but if memory serves me, it isnï¿½t much better...

Scout...

[This message has been edited by scout (edited 02-11-2002).]

12 February 2002, 10:15

Fritz Kraut

Vihtavuori in Finland have some recipes for the 8x68S: http://www.vihtavuori.fi/vihtavuori/rifle/8x68s.htm

This is a rather interesting discussion. What are your suggestions for a proper gun weight to handle the recoil? In the wrong rifle it would be a rather mean kicking muleass.

Best regards,

Fritz

12 February 2002, 12:09

wildcat junkie

quote:
Originally posted by Fritz Kraut:
Vihtavuori in Finland have some recipes for the 8x68S: http://www.vihtavuori.fi/vihtavuori/rifle/8x68s.htm
This is a rather interesting discussion. What are your suggestions for a proper gun weight to handle the recoil? In the wrong rifle it would be a rather mean kicking muleass.
Best regards,
Fritz

Fritz: Thank you very much sir! In this one post you have given all of the information I sought!

Instead of sarcasm and criticism, you gave the exact information desired! You are a gentleman Fritz. Thank you very much.

The difference in velocity between the 196gr and 200gr variants is interesting. One would not expect a 150fps reduction in velocity for a 4gr increase in bullet weight. 3000fps with a 200gr Nosler Partition is what I am looking for. It looks to be practical from this data. The COL looks like it would easily fit into a "standard length" M98K with a little work on the magwell and feed ramp.

Now to find the brass @ a reasonable price!

P.S. I have absolutely no interest in any "belted" magnum! (with the possible exception of the 375 H&H, for which the "belt" does indeed serve a purpose!)

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

[This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 02-12-2002).]

12 February 2002, 12:14

wildcat junkie

quote:
Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
OOPS, WRONG BUTTON

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

[This message has been edited by wildcat junkie (edited 02-12-2002).]

12 February 2002, 12:24

dan belisle

WJ- yes, as I mentioned in the previous post, with some work the 8 x 68 will fit in a 98 action. I believe that 3000 fps with a 200 gr bullet is a reachable goal (depending on barrel length). As for weight and recoil, a 200 gr bullet at 3000 fps is about the same ballistically as a 300 Wby, so a rifle of about the same weight would probably be a good choice. Say 8-9 lbs. Not too heavy, but enough weight to help soak up the recoil. I think this is a good idea, so much so that I've added it to my list of projects. Good luck and keep us posted. - Dan

12 February 2002, 13:23

wildcat junkie

quote:
Originally posted by dan belisle:
WJ- yes, as I mentioned in the previous post, with some work the 8 x 68 will fit in a 98 action. I believe that 3000 fps with a 200 gr bullet is a reachable goal (depending on barrel length). As for weight and recoil, a 200 gr bullet at 3000 fps is about the same ballistically as a 300 Wby, so a rifle of about the same weight would probably be a good choice. Say 8-9 lbs. Not too heavy, but enough weight to help soak up the recoil. I think this is a good idea, so much so that I've added it to my list of projects. Good luck and keep us posted. - Dan

Dan: Sorry if you felt slighted by my last post. it was not aimed @ you, or anyone else that has tried to contribute data. What Fritz did was list publised data. This cleared up some conflicting information, and did indeed support your contributions. An 8# rifle with proper cast off and a 1" decelerator pad should be quite managable I think.

I too must put this on my list. I currently have the 8mm-06 A. I. to rebarrel, 2 VZ500 "intermediate length" large ring commercial M98 actions to build on,(8mm/376 Steyr Imp and 7mm WSM?) as well as a pristeen (except for "sporterized" stock of unknown origine) M98K with matching numbers. I think the later would make a good basis for an 8X68S (A NON WILDCAT CHAMBERING NO LESS)

Let's here some brass sources with prices please!

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Life is more exitin' when yer stickin' suppositories inta a wildcats behind!

13 February 2002, 02:47

carcano91

quote:
Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
The difference in velocity between the 196gr and 200gr variants is interesting. One would not expect a 150fps reduction in velocity for a 4gr increase in bullet weight.

As the quoted Vihtavuori data show, the small difference in bullet weight is indeed not the responsible factor.

Regards,
Carcano

13 February 2002, 03:54

dan belisle

No slight taken, WJ. I was just trying to clarify myself. I came across a Steyr 8 x 68 at the local gunshow on Sunday. The rifle was pristine. Old German guy had about a half dozen Steyr rifles for sale. Cleaning out his collection, he said. Anyway, the rifle was stocked normally (not the Mannlicher), had a 28" barrel, and came with dies and brass. All for the low price of $2000 cdn. (about $1330 US). Nice rifle, but I'll do it myself instead. Take care - Dan