How do they fix to much headspace?

probably have to set the barrel back a bit and depending on that amount may have to run a finish reamer in to establish correct chamber dimension

The norm would be to either set the barrel back or possibly rechamber it into something else.

Depending on the type of cartridge and you reload you can set up your dies to not set the shoulder back. This is not a fix but a work around. No help with a rimmed case and it sure doesn't help the next guy that owns the rifle.

Jesus, fellas. Take it to a competent gunsmith and have it done properly instead of dicking around.

How much is too much. To a certain extent, the effects of excessive headspace can be reduced by certain reloading techniques. Safety is the biggest issue here. Everybody pretty much agrees that it should be correct.

It's a sporterized 8mm mauser. I checked it w/nogo gauge and the bolt closed. Took it to the smith and he said that is common w/military action. He used a shim on the bolt face to simulate a field gauge and it wouldn't close. He said it was fine.

quote:

He used a shim on the bolt face to simulate a field gauge and it wouldn't close. He said it was fine.

I would tend to agree with him. Here is what Brownell's has to say;

Saved from Brownell's Tech Talk:

"If the bolt closes with no feel to the handle with a GO gauge in the chamber, open the bolt, remove the GO gauge, and replace it with a NO-GO gauge. Again, gently attempt to close the bolt. The bolt handle should stop or show resistance to closing at some point before it fully closes. DO NOT force the bolt handle closed. Even if the bolt handle closes 98% before you feel resistance, the headspace is normally considered to be within specs.

If the bolt handle closes fully on the NO-GO gauge, repeat the test with a FIELD gauge. If the bolt does not close completely with this gauge, the headspace is on the long side, but the rifle can usually still be used with factory ammo, if the cases will not be reloaded and there are no other problems present. Never fire a gun that closes on a FIELD gauge. If it is fired, the chances are extremely high that you will get case ruptures"

quote:

Originally posted by AS64:
It's a sporterized 8mm mauser. I checked it w/nogo gauge and the bolt closed. Took it to the smith and he said that is common w/military action. He used a shim on the bolt face to simulate a field gauge and it wouldn't close. He said it was fine.

If the sights have been remove the barrel can be faced off and turned in slightly to correct headspace. This was common arsenal practice except the arsenals had to redrill the sight locating holes. You see a lot of mausers that have had the sights removed only to find multiple sets of holes for both the front and rear sights.

SR

I don't think you will find Arsenals that do stuff like that. A bunch of extra holes is usually the work of barrel butchers.

JMHO

Ray

The reason the field gauge is called a field gauge is that if the rifle accepted it.this was reason to remove it from use and return it to support/armory for repair. On a mauser this could also be lug set back in the reciever.

quote:

Originally posted by Cheechako:
SR

I don't think you will find Arsenals that do stuff like that. A bunch of extra holes is usually the work of barrel butchers.

JMHO

Ray

On the contrary the arsenals seem have done an awful lot of it in poor countries. An extra set of holes is not uncommon and neither is 2 extra sets of holes that are found when the issue sights are removed. I have even found relined Mauser barrels. It is hardly butchery of the barrel if it is repairing a rifle in which the too soft receiver has set back.
Think 93 Mausers from Spain and Turkey.
Have you ever seen parts guns from those countries?

reading this thread brings to mind something that i always get a little nervous about.
unless the headspace was excessive from the factory or armory (as i realize some of the mausers were), fixing excessive headspace that developed during use of the gun without finding the cause is a bit irresponsible, in my opinion. no-one mentioned finding why it develpoed. setting the barrel back on a soft action is only asking for big headache!.

quote:

Originally posted by merlinron:
reading this thread brings to mind something that i always get a little nervous about.
unless the headspace was excessive from the factory or armory (as i realize some of the mausers were), fixing excessive headspace that developed during use of the gun without finding the cause is a bit irresponsible, in my opinion. no-one mentioned finding why it develpoed. setting the barrel back on a soft action is only asking for big headache!.

I don't think you can always know the answer to that question. In particular 7X57 Mausers seem to have been manufactured to more than one standard. It is not unusual to find 7X57 primers backed out .015 in once fired brass. A friends 7X57 rolling block had excessive headspace and the shoulder angle did not match modern ammo. Every 93 Spanish Mauser I ever messed with had excessive head space. I have a like new 1909 Argentine that has .030 excessive headspace. The excess is so great that it could not have set back that much. OTOH I have 1909 that has been rode hard, arsenal refinished and the first 12 " of rifling shot away and it has normal head space.

quote:

Originally posted by AS64:
It's a sporterized 8mm mauser. I checked it w/nogo gauge and the bolt closed. Took it to the smith and he said that is common w/military action. He used a shim on the bolt face to simulate a field gauge and it wouldn't close. He said it was fine.

Most military have go, no go and field. If it swallows a "field" gage, the rifle is unserviceable in that condition....trust your gunsmith's advice...sounds like he knows his beans....European gages tend to be a little "long" anyway..

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Originally posted by afro408:
Jesus, fellas. Take it to a competent gunsmith and have it done properly instead of dicking around.

Which is what he did. Note the original question is "how do they..." not "how can I..."

This is a gunsmithing forum after all. Why is it that whenever somebody asks a reasonable gunsmithing question, somebody invariably chimes in with "take it to a gunsmith"?

Now we can sugjest something. Make your brass out of 30-06 empties and size them to fit the chamber. Keep that brass separate for that gun and anjoy shooting it with no excess headspace.

Mauser lug setback is sometimes a problem, but almost always can be easily spotted with the barrel removed. Simply inspect the upper lug seat in the receiver, at the top inside of the ring. Lug setback in the receiver is almost always noticable here rather than on the bottom surface since the upper bolt lug has a split for the ejector and this split will create a ridge when the rest of the receiver's recoil surface sets back. Often the bolt will have a definite 'click' when the split lug passes over this ridge.

If you encounter this, discard the receiver since it's not economically repairable.

BTW lug setback is often caused or aggravated by excessive headspace, allowing the bolt to get a running start at its seat. Think floating chamber.
Ragards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:


If you encounter this, discard the receiver since it's not economically repairable.



Ragards, Joe

I beg to differ. The cost of reapir can often be less than a replacement receiver. I've repaired a lot and never heard a customer say it was un-economical.

ZLR

What is your repair procedure for lug setback.

There is aomething that was not covered here. Lug setback cannot always be determined by a go/nogo gauge. A bolt may close on a go and not on a nogo. That don't necessarily mean the headspace is correct.

Consider this. With lug setback, there is a portion of the lug seats on the receiver that is not in battery when the bolt is closed; it is bypassed as the bolt is closed. If setback is present, the bolt will close on the go. When the nogo is inserted, the bolt will not close. Now, with the bolt closed on a go gauge, feel the bolt play, back and forth when in battery. There could be slop present with the lugs in the setback area. One can determine how much by placing a dial indicator at the rear of the bolt body and, with the go gauge in place, move the bolt back and forth and note any movement of the indicator which tells one how much setback is present. If it were possible to get the nogo in that position, it may be that the bolt would close on it. Other than removing the barrel and placing the nogo in the chamber and then re-installing the barrel I could not imagine how else, other that with the indicator, one would be able to tell if setback is present without taking the barrel off.

Did I make myself clear?

quote:

Did I make myself clear?

there is away to check it and know how much set back there is with a dial without taking the barrel off.
with the gun in soft jaws and the barrel muzzle up, put a close fitting rod down the bore resting on the boltface. now set up your dial to read off the end of the rod sticking out of the bore. close the bolt, zero the dial and open the bolt. set back will read as positive values before the bolt is engaged on the extraction ramp. no set back will read as zero travel for several degrees of bolt rotation and then steadily read in the negative as it runs on the extraction ramp untill it's fully open.
dress the ends of the rod with a slight radius so they bear on only one point, then they won't give false readings as the bolt turns.

Just a comment about bolt setback, soft receivers, and ecomnomy of repair. The history of the weapon matters. Or should I say experience. A 100 year old rifle which was carried in combat in three wars can be excused for demonstrating some excessive headspace, lug setback and so forth. Hundreds of thousands of rounds will do this. Facing off the lug seat, setting back the barrel and rechambering will give you more remaining life in that old action than anybody is likely to use. If you are going to make a high dollar exotic rifle, there are other wear considerations which would disqualify our old champ.

Generally, you should not re-face the lug seats on a Mauser without having the action heat treated following the procedure. Cutting the lug surface can remove most if not all the case hardened material exposing the softer material underneath it, which obviously will be more susceptible to accelerated setback.

the answer to the question of " why it happened" is is pretty elementary.
if you check it for set back and it shows none, make sure the bolt lugs look good. it's safe to assume it was most likey excessive from the get go as alot of the late war mausers were. that means the reciever is not necessarily soft and a fix should be the remedy. if it shows setback, the hardness of the reciever is questionable and setting the barrel back is a questionable process without proper attention to the reciever first. the 100 bucks it costs to re-heat treat the reciever is a small price compared to the value of the whole gun and your face.

quote:

Originally posted by merlinron:
reading this thread brings to mind something that i always get a little nervous about.
unless the headspace was excessive from the factory or armory (as i realize some of the mausers were), fixing excessive headspace that developed during use of the gun without finding the cause is a bit irresponsible, in my opinion. no-one mentioned finding why it develpoed. setting the barrel back on a soft action is only asking for big headache!.

You guys can use all those old beat-up worn-out rags you want and take whatever chance there is the Cumulative Metal Fatigue will hold off a bit longer. Obviously a lot of Gun Smiths feed themselves by rebarreling, refinishing, restocking, re-ect and I do wish you all well.

As for me, I'll stick with "new".

IMO 'new' generally equates to 'not very good compared to the old'. All my guns are older than I am, usually made in the 19th century. In fact the only post-WW2 guns we own are a couple of S&W snubbies that My Bride carries.

I'm not opposed to new, in fact I own a wildcat based on the 300 WSM chamber with a rim added to the case, as well as several 17 RFs of various persuasions. However these are built on original Winchester high and low wall actions, not the new lesser-quality bolt actions being made today.

Different strokes....
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by papapaul:
Now we can sugjest something. Make your brass out of 30-06 empties and size them to fit the chamber. Keep that brass separate for that gun and anjoy shooting it with no excess headspace.

That is exactly what I did on a mismatched turk I have. The second batch of brass, I used 8x57, and necked it up. Then I sized it just enough to chamber.

That's the reloading solution, and its a cheap one.

probably the best solution to the headspace problem is as mentioned about making brass for that particular rifle and then keeping that brass with that rifle only, just necking the reloads. a practice that is indeed entirely safe in a gun with good surfaces but a bit "long chambered" and probably done for all of thier guns by most everyone on here that reloads alot, .....PROVIDING.... said action does not exhibit excessive headspace as a result of setback from soft shoulders or abusively constant high pressures.

quote:

Make your brass out of 30-06 empties and size them to fit the chamber. Keep that brass separate for that gun and anjoy shooting it with no excess headspace.

But your wife will sell them to your neighbor at a yard sale the first weekend after you got run over by a bus. He will pound these 30-06 marked cartridges into his low number Springfield and blow it up.

Better to use military cases without an ID headstamp or neck down a larger case, like 35 Whelen.

Bruce