Oh fellow members of the Church of the Straight Bullet:

When breaking in a barrel using the shoot one clean for five shots, shoot two clean for ten, or similar system how much of the break in process is due to the abrasive action of cleaning with brushes/JB vs. the actual shooting? I was thinking about brushless cleaning methods such as Wipeout...does it matter if your not SCRUBBING the barrel during the break in process? Frankly, I'm always skeptical of barrel break in voodoo since I've never seen a true test using borescopes to prove it's not just a waste of time..but anyway....what about break in with Wipeout??

From what I've read, most folks leave it in over night so that should be one heckuva break in process!!! Plannin' a little TLC for that 260???

After a recent experience with a pitted barrel I will never leave anything but Hoppes #9 in th ebarrel overnight!

There is no break-in done by brushing or using JB. The proceedure of breaking in a barrel is a method of removing/smoothing of the internal barrel surface by the bullet passing through. By shooting one shot and cleaning all the copper out before shooting again, you are effectively lapping the barrel. But, you must get the copper out before the next shot, or the next bullet will strip off the copper left by the previous shot.

Whether this is of any benefit to a factory barrel is a matter of opinion. On a custom barrel, the only thing being done by break-in is removing the reamer finish from the leade, the surface finish of the barrel is fine as is.

If you use a bore guide, which anyone with a conscious about their gun should, and proper cleaning rod use, you won't harm the barrel by cleaning, whether using a brush or JB's.

Don't shoot a dry barrel, especially during break-in.

RogerinNeb, I'm going to try Wipe-Out on my next break-in. I'll let you know how it works, if you try it let us know please.
For interests sake check out this link http://www.border-barrels.com/shoot-in.htm, It's how Border Barrels breaks in their barrels. Sounds like a P.I.T.A. to me............DJ

If you want to read what really happens when you "break-in" a barrel as you suggest, go to the web-site for Krieger barrels for the explanation.

Roger & DJ, Wipeout is too slow for the barrel break in process.

They say leave it in for 15 mins or so but in my experience that is not enough. Wipeout is excellent if left overnight. It really does get all the copper out in my rifles but they get cleaned each time they are used. But it needs a lot of time!!

For Barrel Break in you need something faster like Sweets or whatever you have there that is fast acting copper removal.

Regards
JohnT

Actually, some of the extreme accuracy guys say that Wipeout cleans so well that, after using it, the breakin process needs to be REPEATED to achieve maximum accuracy again! This would argue against its use during the breakin process.

Whoooaaa. Now you've got my head spinning. TOO clean? If guys are cleaning with sweets/brushes/etc. during barrel break in you're telling me they aren't getting their bores as clean as with Wipeout? I thought ALL traces of copper had to be removed between shots/groups during break in or else the barrel will forever foul like crazy....So Joe, what your saying is the barrel should be cleaned during break in but not as clean as what one achieves with Wipeout?

If the break in process is to remove "micro burrs" tooling marks, whatever...why would it ever have to be repeated if the barrel got TOO clean? !#($#(*(*$&&*@$

Hmmmmmm. I'm going to look for my chicken bones and goat's head to help me with this voodoo.

Seat up a ladder next to your shooting bench during barrel break in. Hang a dead chicken inside the ladder. throw some dirt to the east , then the west , then shoot away.

So what you are saying is that if one then continues to use Wipe-Out after "not" breaking in the barrel with it, the barrel will never be broken in! To be forever a "virginal", "new" barrel for eternity!

Maybe I'm slow. Could you please explain?

Erik D.

You know I was told by an old MASTER shooter of the National Match Course, not to clean the barrel of the match M-14 I was issued. He said it would screw it up. Granted an M-14 is worlds different than the bolt guns we shoot. You can't clean one through the breech, and they probably can't get one hole groups, but I think most of the good ones will shoot about 1 MOA.

I know before the fad started, living in dry Wyoming, I used to go years between just wiping the powder fouling out of some of my rifles. I've cleaned the copper out of most of them now, and I am getting an idea of how well they shoot clean vs. fouled, and I think I am going to go back to not keeping the copper out of most of them.

I have a 223 for instance that I shot for years before I ever cleaned out the copper. With good loads it would shoot less than an inch. After cleaning, I don't see all that much difference. This is a rifle that might shoot 3-400 rounds a day in a prairie dog town. Why am I risking damaging a barrel this good to gain at best 1/4 inch in group size, and that for only the first 10 or 20 shots after cleaning.

I will probably try to keep the copper out of my most accurate rifle which is actually a 270 set up for hunting, but this is actually a pain in a hunting rifle. I'm not positive yet, but I think the zero of the rifle is a little differant between clean and fouled. If it is, then the first thing I will have to do when using it is to fire a fouling shot. Maybe all this falderal is really for the bench resters and people who sell copper remover.

I see a couple of Huskers on this thread. I managed Crescent Lake National Wildlife Refuge for quite a few years before I retired. Did you know that there are some big prairie dog towns in the NW corner of your state. I never did find one, but there has to be some on public land of the Ogallala National Grassland. I found a big one on private land adjacent to the grassland that a landowner begged me to shoot, so I never looked for another.

JohnT is right, WipeOut is too slow to use for break-in, unless you have a month to do it. You need something agressive, like Sweets, or Barne's Copper remover. Lube the barrel before firing a shot, or you are working agianst yourself.

The very idea of "having to repeat the break-in process" after using WipeOut is crazy. Think about it, what does it do to a barrel to rough it up back to it's original condition? If this stuff reacts with steel this badly to cause pitting, scarring, etc. it shouldn't come close to a barrel. I doubt it harms a barrel in any way.

But, if you clean a barrel squeeky clean, bone dry, and fire a shot thru it, you will probably think you are starting over.

What do you lube your bbl with before you shoot it Wayne, I've always heard never fire through an oily bbl. That has always scared me some because with some of these cleaners it leaves your bbl wide open to moisture. I did wipe a clean bbl with silicone once or twice, but I felt like I was treading on uncharted territory.

I have not used Wipeout yet. I'm too happy with Sweets. I have better things to do than to wait on my bore cleaner to work! As far as break in is concerned I subscribe to the method prescribed by Sinclair International. I think there method is straight forward simple.

Let's face it you aren't going to make a bad barrel shoot good, but I think you can make the barrel less prone to fouling by "breaking in" a new barrel.

I also here good things about Montana Extreme cleaners and oils.

You're not going to make a bad barrel shoot good, nor are you going to make a good barrel shoot bad, so what's the point to using any breakin schedule. I just make sure to clean it thoroughly and a bit more often while new to be sure it doesn't get a lot of fouling at the start. After 50 rounds are through it, you'll know if it's fouling excessively, the clean it accordingly. I have been using wipeout a lot lately and like it mainly because of the convenience, and it did take some fouling out of a 7Mag that was 30 years old and I thought was clean already. When working up loads I also notice quite a bit of velocity change when the barrel is clean, velocity and consistency comes up after about three shots, then levels off. The clean barrel often shows 60-75 fps less than the 3rd and subsequent shots.

bilmac, I understand your thoughts about a wet bore. Every reloading guide ever printed says it's a no-no. Excessive pressure. etc. What I'm talking about is not going to cause any harm at all.

First, what to use. It's been discussed many times, and it seems there are as many opinions as any subject. I have heard everything from ATF, Marvel Mistory Oil, Kroil, any gun oil, etc. The fact is, I believe, it doesn't make all that much difference, as long as it has lubricating properties. Kroil is not a lube per se, it's a penetrating oil. I suggest any good gun oil, 3in1 oil, sewing machine oil, somthing light like that.

Now, I'm only talking about a THIN coating down the tube. I take a patch, drop about 4-5 drops on it in a circle aorund the jag, and push it thru once. That's it. All we want to do is have a thin coating to seperate the bare steel to the bullet for the first shot. Once the first goes thru, the residue from the powder contains graphite among all the rest of the stuff. But it is now coating the barrel.

When I compete in a match, after cleaning, I use Lock-Ease on a patch, a few drops as before. One time down the bore, and to the line I go. Hope this explains things.

Rusty - I went to Sinclair's website, but a search for "barrel break in" resulted in a message that the search returned too many responses - can you give me a hint on where to look there?

The procedure isn't listed ont he site. It is in their book, that they want you to buy!

Here is a synopsis of the Sinclair procedure

1. FIRE 1 SHOT

2. 2 WET PATCHES THROUGH THE BORE TO CLEAN AND
SOAK THE BORE

3. WET BORE BRUSH COMPLETELY THROUGH THE BORE 10 TIMES

4. WIPE DOWN ROD AND RUN A WET PATCH THROUGH THE BORE

5. BRUSH BORE AGAIN WITH WET BRUSH 10 TIMES

6. 2 WET PATCHES THROUGH THE BORE. THEN DRY PATCH OUT.

7. SHOOT 1 SHOT AND CLEAN (REPEAT STEPS 2-6)

8. SHOOT 2 SHOTS, REPEAT STEPS (2-6)

9. SHOOT 2 SHOTS, REPEAT STEPS (2-6)

10. CLEAN WITH SWEETS 2 WELL-SOAKED PATCHES AND LET IT SIT FOR 10-15 MINUTES. DRY PATCH OUT. IF STRONG BLUEISH-GREEN PATCHES REMAIN REPEAT SWEETS.

11. FIRE 3 SHOT GROUP AND CLEAN STEPS 2-6. PERFORM THIS A TOTAL OF 4 TIMES. MAKES TOTAL OF 12 SHOTS CLEANING BETWEEN EVERY 3RD SHOT.

12. CLEAN WITH SWEET�S

13. REPEAT 11-12. YOU SHOULD HAVE FIRED 30 ROUNDS BY NOW.

14. FIRE 5 SHOTS AND CLEAN 2-6. DO THIS 3 TIMES AND CLEAN WITH SWEET�S.

15. REPEAT STEP 13. YOU SHOULD HAVE FIRED 60 SHOTS BY NOW. IF YOU ARE GETTING SEVER FOULING CONTINUE SHOOTING 5 SHOT STRINGS AND CLEANING

16. IF BARREL SEEMS TO BE CLEANING OUT WELL YOU CAN INCREASE THE NUMBER OF SHOTS BETWEEN CLEANINGS TO 7. YOU CAN BEGIN DOING SOME LOAD DEVELOPMENT. SHOOT 1 FOULER AND 2 GROUPS OF THREE. ONCE YOU ARE OVER 100 ROUNDS YOU SHOULD START SHOOTING AS YOU NORMALLY WOULD.

Hope this helps!

Varmint Hunter

Here is a post for a totally contrary argument from the Varmint Hunter web site. ie. No Oil Should be in the Bore. In the past I have always subscribed to the patch of Kroil then 2 dry patches before I shoot.

But this guy seems to know what he is talking about & definitely worth a try next time I go to the range. If it eliminates the initial 1 or 2 shot flier while we are conditioning the bore that would be very useful for a hunting rifle.

Can't comment if it works or makes any diff at all but easy enough to prove to yourself.

Regards
JohnT

Wayne, not be antagonistic but how does a thin coating of lubricant make a difference? Common sense would say it would help the bullet "slide" out the barrel. But are we sure that at the temperatures and pressures in a rifle barrel that these very light oils do anything but get vaporized or heated/compressed into some kind of crud that gunks up the bore? Do we have controlled tests with Hawkeye bore scopes with and without this lubing procedure? I hate to be too skeptical but I live by that adage, "In God We Trust," all others---please bring data.



This applies to the barrel breakin procedure as well. How did Sinclair come up with their voodoo, which is slightly different than Kriegers, which is different than SG&Y, blah blah blah. I'm waiting for some DATA not hearsay about "N of 1" anectdotes. Can a copper bullet really smooth out tooling marks on 416 stainless made by a carbide cutter/button? Barrel break in is way too time consuming to be taken on faith. All that rod clatter and crown rubbing that takes place with the Sinclair method scares the crap out of me! Cure worse than the disease?



Don't tell me "the benchrest guys do it so it must be good juju." Those guys will try any voodoo to win. And they have WAY too much time on their hands.



May I remind you of Cryogenic barrel treatment? I remember when ALL the guys were doing that! and lots of technical metallurgical mumbo jumbo to support it, now proven to be a bust I guess? Same with Moly!



Arghhhh. We need more science and controlled studies not VOODOOO!

I use Kroil and JBs to clean a barrel prior to any shooting it and I want the last patch very clean...I think this is the most important step in a new barrel..Lots of crap in new cut barrels..

I have used the shoot and clean methods, and I suspect one is as good as the other, no magic here IMO...just common since..Today I clean very good, then shoot 5 and clean then shoot 10 and clean, that should be good enough...but in all honesty with a "hunting rifle" I suspect the one good prior to shooting cleaning is plenty...

Well Roger, I don't have technical data to support my opinions. I have them from "the school of hard knocks". I shoot benchrest and use the finest barrels available. I do my own gunsmithing and own a borescope as well. I follow proceedures for chambering the same as many top smiths in the country. There is no smoke and mirrors or rocket science to chambering, just attention to detail and the desire to do it right.

Breaking in a barrel has been argued for a long time. Some don't bother, some take the few pains and do it. I know what I see with the borescope, before and after break-in. It's not the internal barrel finish of these fine barrels we are dealing with. It's the tooling marks left by the reamer. No method of chambering can avoid this. It's a simple fact of machining, there are cutting marks perpendicular to the bore direction in the throat area. That's the only thing break-in does. It shouldn't take but 10 shots or less to do it. Some cartridges, like the 6.5's can take a little longer. But once done, there are no more reamer marks, just a nice smooth throat, just like the rest of the barrel.

I have no doubt that oil will vaporize due to the heat at firing. But I'm talking about oil AHEAD of this at first shot. I don't think there is that much gas escaping ahead of the bullet to vaporize the oil.

I've done break-in both dry and "wet". I know what a dry bore will do, it will extend the break-in double or triple. This is my opinion, and this is what I do. I am certainly not the only one doing it. It's not voodoo. The benchrest people strive for a level of accuracy most can't imagine, and we will try different things to get there. Please don't critisize what the BR crowd does, follow what you believe is the proper way to clean, break-in, etc.

Wayne:

Well put!

This is the procedure I follow with my Browning firarms: http://www.browning.com/faq/detail.asp?ID=112

Danny Boy

Oil in the barrel. After cleaning, I run a patch lightly oiled. This is for storage. Before shooting, I will run one patch down the barrel.

A long time ago, JBelk showed a barrel section that had been shot and damaged. He described it as being shot with a "wet" barrel.

Being a novice, I asked him what that was.

His reply, "shooting a rifle with an oily barrel."

I prefer the Gale McMillan method of barrel break-in.

OK...I'll Bite....What does Gale McMillan do to break in barrels?

Wayne,

Please do not take my skepticism as being critical of you. I certainly don't mean it that way. I've just come to realize that there are a lot of folk methods among benchrest shooters that have not been substantiated and some that have proven to have no effect on accuracy/bore life/etc. This wet/dry bore thing is very interesting! Lot's of different opinions.

Roger

The Gale McMillan method of break-in is NO break-in. He thought it was a stupid idea and having done a few myself I now agree. BTW, Gale is now deceased. I am forever greatful for his advice.