Are there any commonly available (like at Walmart) polishes or grits I can use to lightly lap a barrel? I was thinking Flitz or valve grinding compound on a tight patch.

You are at two extremes there. Flitz will polish and spiff up your bore. It is of no use in lapping. Valve grinding compound is used on a cast lap and will remove significant barrel material. If by lapping you mean spiffing up a tired old bore, put some Flitz on steel wool and wrap it around a brush. The bore will sparkle. Don't do this to a match grade barrel! As for real lapping on a finished rifle barrel, forget it. You will end up damaging the crown and throat. Lapping finished barrels is not a good idea. What ever you do don't put valve grinding compound on steel wool or a patch. That will remove metal in an uncontrolled way trashing the barrel.

Toothpaste, like Ultrabrite, works almost like JB Bore cleaner. It's a very mild abrasive. Wrap a patch around a worn brush so you have a tight fit in the bore, gob up the patch with a wad of it and start scrubbing away.

TomJ - The first question that springs to mind is - WHY? If you don't know what lapping compound to use, how do you know you need to lap your barrel? I guess you know that lapping is considered a fairly extreme measure for a barrel. Most folks that resort to lapping do so as a last step for a barrel that is in serious trouble.

I suppose I am just curious as to why you need to lap your bore. Maybe you can fill us curious types in. We might find another less drastic solution to your problem.

However, to answer your question, one of the best goof-proof ways to lap is to fire lap. The NECO kit is one of the best that I have seen and very easy to use.

The barrel gets so fowled with copper that it takes 3 days to clean it on an electric cleaner after just 15 shots. I've never been able to get it clean using Barnes copper remover without plugging the bore. It feels like it has a rough spot in the middle of the bore. At the muzzle, you can see that all of the grooves are filled with copper after 15 shots. I think if it was smoother, I would get less fowling and spend less time cleaning it.
I don't think they have the Neco kit at Walmart. Really don't want to spend $10 shipping on a $5 item.

[This message has been edited by TomJ (edited 11-07-2001).]

TomJ,

Please take this in the spirit that it is being offered, for information and advise.

A barrel that fouls to the extent that you say yours does will require more than just a polishing with something that you can get from Wal-Mart. Manual polishing of a finished barrel can result in a ruined crown and/or a ruined throat.

One way to accomplish this "lapping" is as recommended above, with the Neco kit from Brownells. It is $75.50 + $6.75 shipping and is available in .224, 6mm, and .308 kits. It's a good way to salvage a rough barrel. It does not harm the crown but can extend the throat slightly.

In all fairness though, if I had a choice between investing $82.25 in a questionable barrel and getting a higher quality new barrel, I'd vote for the new barrel. Just a little more to think about.

Bill

Thanks guys!

Tom - Back the bus up a little. Please answer the following...

What gun make and model?
How old is the gun?
Are you the first owner?
What caliber?
What bullet?
How many rounds through the bore?
How is accuracy before 15 rounds?
How is accuracy after 15 rounds?
Describe your cleaning method.

Tom, there are many factors that lead to fouling. However, sounds like you have other problems considering that you have a rough spot in the middle of the bore. Could be that the barrel is seriously pitted and there is no reason to waste any time or money attempting to fix it. If the gun is accurate (MOA or better) leave it alone and shoot the barrel out.

To cut through the fouling I would suggest a little Flitz or JB Bore Paste. Use a bore guide by all means. Do not get aggressive. Start with 50 passes of a patch wrapped around and old brush. Use long, even strokes. Do not scrub back-and-forth.

Then apply CR-10 AS DIRECTED. Push patches through until no indication of copper. Push several dry patches through to remove all CR-10. Flood the barrel (muzzle down) with Kroil or CLP. Push one more patch through to remove standing oil. Store muzzle down for a few days to avoid migration of oil into action. Go shoot.

Do this entire routine two or three times. IF your barrel is going to come around, this will surely do it. IF it doesn�t, break out the dynamite and have at it...

I've have a Savage barrel that fouled like that, and the Neco kit DID fix that problem, for the most part. It DID push the throat forward, a good bit.

However, I am just about positive that shooting, regular cleaning and a couple of bouts with Flitz and a bore guide would had the same result. I like shooting better, anyway. ;-).

The critical question is this: how much accuracy do you loose, at how many rounds, and how long does it take to clean back to restore 95% of the accuracy?

The easiest way to reduce cleaning time is to realize that getting the copper out of every last crack, crevice and machine mark is only good for the guys that sell the cleaning solutions......... HTH, Dutch.

There is a new product on the market called "David Tubb's Final Finish" that is similar to the NECO firelapping kit...I've used both and the Final Finish wins hands down. They use a much finer grit for the final polishing, even finer than that use in land-lapping barrels....you can buy the bullets and load your own or actually buy ammo ready to go....it is sold by Cabella's.

Long before the "fire lapping" kits I used to do the same kind of thing with cast bullets and valve grinding compound. Good old Clover automotive stuff. Roll the bullet between a couple of old files that have a bit of compound smeared on them. Fire it using a light charge of fast powder. We used to hand breech seat the bullet and use a seperately charged neckless case to prevent damaging the chamber. Made several nasty old military barrels shoot much better. It certainly smoothed them up. Try a dozen 240 grit bullet loaded cartridges for starters. Maybe several 320 grit ones to finish. We used lubed cast bullets. Consitering modern practice, I suppose you could do the same with jacketed bullets, we never did though.
Some are going to moan about the compound imbedding in the barrel steel, I guess......., never experienced it myself though. You will probably wear the throat too. Sounds like this barrel is scrap iron anyway. Try it out, you have nothing to loose. Obviously never do this with a good barrel.
Final thought, you spoke of electro chemical cleaning the thing for long periods of time. Any chance the rod touched the bore and caused the nasty spot in the middle?? You might have etched the bore too. Seems like very harsh treatment to me.

It's a 30-06 model 70. Groups sizes more than double after 50 shots (from an electro-absolutely clean bore). An NRA match is 80. Don't have much data on it's accuracy, looks like I might be able to find something that will shoot 1 1/4MOA. I'm the second owner. The bore *looks* great. I usually like to clean them by running Shooter's Choice through them, letting them sit, and then a couple dry patches. Then I let the guns sit wet w/SC over night and repeat. When this process takes more than 3 days, I break out the electro cleaner or plug the bore and soak with a good solvent, starting with SC and if that doesn't work, break out the Barnes.
I haven't put alot of rounds through this gun, so I'm not real sure about what it takes. I expect a rifle to clean up like a custom barrel - 100 rounds and fowling that can be taken out with 10 wet patches & 2 hours of time.

Hmmmm, I would not shoot valve grinding compound through it. That rifle is too nice. Maybe as an extreme last resort before you throw that barrel away. For now, Try Flitz and fine steel wool. Then Moly prep it and try moly bullets.
I think you are over cleaning. The bore does not need to be free of all copper. You will end up damaging it from over cleaning, before you help it.
You mentioned being able to "feel" a rough spot half way down the barrel. That sounds pretty bad. You may end up replacing that tube. Before you spend a ton of money on bullets and loading compontnents in a quest for solving the problem, consiter buying a quality tube. You could easily spend what a new barrel will cost in loading compontents in a vain effort to make it work.

The best way to polish a barrel is shoot it about 2 or 300 times, and when its all finished you'll be a lot better shot also. All that other stuff used to be called wearing out a barrel...

If it is as bad as you say, I'd just rebarrel it...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

50 rounds? That's not too bad. Even my Shilen needed to be cleaned at 50 until it was shot in. I'd Flitz it and call it good. Are you sure the "tight spot" isn't the spot in front of the throat (where all the carbon collects)?. HTH, Dutch.

Tom - Face facts. You are the second owner and have no real idea about how many rounds have been shot though the gun nor how well it was treated. Visual inspection without a bore scope is of little value.

My advice - Clean the gun as outlined. Then take it to a competent gun smith that possesses a bore scope. Also get a measurement on the throat so that you can gage OAL on your loads.

There was a recent review of Neco's fire lapping procedure I believe in Rifle magazine. I cannot remember the author. He was luke warm, if not negative about the product. He used a bore scope and also slugged his bores. His conclusion was that fire lapping smooths the throat and not much else. He did speak highly of the lead lap process but it seems you really need to know what you are doing to use that process successfully.

Jordan

For about the same price as the lapping kit you can get a new factory barrel from a Smith who has removed it for replacement.Check around you can get them for less than $100 then have it installed. Just a thought.

Tom: Most likely you have an oversize bore- one in which the bullet does not fill the bore for a complete seal. The gas going by the bullet accelerates the jacket fouling effect. I've observed a 309+ bore for instance on a 308 shoot very well clean- but did the same fouling routine as the 308 bullet and after 14-16 shots groups about doubled.

If indeed the bore is just rough, you more than likely have a couple good lap agents already on hand. Chrome polish for cars or rubbing coumpound per same will do a good job of polishing a bore- used on a tight fitting cloth wrapped on an old brush. Or put the agent in the bore coating the length and fire lubed cast slugs which fill the grooves fully. You must completely clean the bore first for this method or any firelapping method to work correctly. Loads are reduced and the bore also must be monitored as to no fouling starts during the process.

What I would do first with your bore is fire a soft lead slug thru very slowly for a 'feeler' guage of sorts. Idea is to get a slug thru w/o any damage- clean the bore and push this slug back thru. Tells the story per tight and loose areas and also mics the real bore dia of the barrel.

Plugging the bore with BarnesX..Now that could be the problem, thats strong stuff and if you left it in there very long, you certainly ruined the bore...Amonia will frost a bore plenty quick...A bore scope will varify or nulify this. I use Barnes X exclusively to remove copper because if anyone knows how to remove copper it should be Barnes, as his bullets are the absolute worst offenders in the world...I never leave it in the bore more than 10 minutes, follow the directions...Jack Belk did a study on this amonia based cleaners and his results were quite interresting.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

There's some bad advice going on here. If you have a fouler barrel and it does not respond to a barrel break-in procedure, then by all means give one of the fire lapping kits a try. These kits have been shown to improve certain barrels with rough bores. I would first try breaking in the barrel using plenty of Sweets and JB paste.

Contrary to Ray's comments on ammonia based cleaners I have never seen a barrel ruined by Sweets, CR-10 or other cleaner if it was used properly. This means not mixing these cleaners with any other solvents. You would not mix bleach with ammonia household cleaner would you? Same rules apply here. I've soaked barrels with strictly sweets overnite then cleaned up with JB paste the next morning on certain neglected rifles. The local smith could not find any damage caused by the ammonia after inspecting with a borescope. Several studies have shown that 100% ammonia will not damage 400 series stainless steel or CM. Check out www.bbs industries.com This is an informative website set up by the makers of Butch's Bore Shine Good luck, sure-shot
P.S. Butch's Bore Shine has ammonia in it and it has never been proven to harm a barrel, even after soaking for a week! Check out the endorsements.
[This message has been edited by sure-shot (edited 11-12-2001).]

[This message has been edited by sure-shot (edited 11-12-2001).]

Buy a copy of the current issue of Rifle magazine. Excellent article in there on just what you want to do, lap with an oversized brush and patch. Worked for him, why not you. The secret is using the right grits.

One, the brush should be undersized.
Two, it is fact that ammona based cleaners can damage a bore. But it needs help, ammona by itself. It has been proven that mixing some cleaners can cause an acid to form. If I remember right it is shooters choice and sweets are the two that dont mix. Make sure to remove all cleaners before changing to another.
Ammona is hydroscopic as well. So if they are left in to long it can promote rust.
Ray

Sure shot,
I don't know where you get your information but I will tell you that CR-10 when used not following directions will ruin a barrel and so will any amonia based product..it will etch the steel....In fact if you leave it in a bore at temps above 90 degrees it happen in a matter of hours, an electrolysis process takes place, not a corrosion process according to Jack Belk, ex president of the Custom Gun Guils, who has done extensive studies on this...

I have had 3 barrels in my shot that were ruined by soaking with CR-10 or "Blue Goop" its homemade twin..Butchs bore shine is much milder than CR-10, less effective but still if it is improperly used it will ruin a barrel...

Thats my call, and I have studied the problem as these are the components that I use, so be forewarned...They are your barrels so its your call...I'll follow the directions to a tee just like all the benchresters do...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Here is some info from an arcticle writen by jack kreiger. He is one of the top barrel makers in the usa. "First, not all chemical cleaners are compatible with each other. Some, when used together at a certain temperature, can cause severe pitting of the barrel -- even stainless steel barrels. It is fine to use two different cleaners as long as you completely remove the first cleaner from the barrel before cleaning with the second. And, of course, never mix them in the same bottle. "

Ray

Ray , you are wrong on this one. Ammonia based cleaners will not damage a bore if used by themselves as M1carbine stated. The reason the bottles say not to leave in the bore is because the makers have no control over what was in the bore previously or what might be used in the bore later. The cardinal sin is allowing two different cleaners to mix.(leaving another solvents residue in the bore)If you dry patch several times and then neutralize with kroil or Butches Gun oil and dry patch again you can then switch to another brand cleaner. Where do I get my info from? From the benchrest crowd of course it's obvious you have not been to a major benchrest meet lately. Butch's bore shine was developed years ago on the benchrest circuit and after many urgings from his friends Butch marketed the product. The University of Montana along with top metallurgists did studies of ammonia's effects on 400 series stainless steel and CM and could not find any damage resulting from prolonged contact. This hysteria of ammonia cleaners was started by some people and companies who were out to make a buck. P.O Ackley himself used homemade ammonia cleaners(28% solution) all the time it was the only way he could really clean a fouler barrel back in his day. Ernie from PacNor assured me I could not harm my barrels with Barnes CR10 if used without interference from other cleaners.

You are also wrong to state to TomJ that his barrel was certainly ruined without looking down the bore yourself. How can someone make a call like that? If I were paid a dollar for every rifle sent in for rebarreling because the owner thought the bore was ruined I would be a wealthy man today!(moneywise that is)

I read bits of misinformation on these threads from time to time and I usually refrain from trying to correct or give my input but this thread was way out in left field on the ruined bore bit. I stand behind my opinions which are backed by many in the shooting industry. sure-shot

Thats fine, you soak your barrels in amonia, I'll decline and I reserve the right to disagree with you 100%.....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

This debate has been raging for years and it most certainly will not end here. Sweets developed an urban myth status about 10 years ago that it would eat metal. Folks who could not read and follow direction properly misused the product and damaged their barrels. This was not attributed to the ammonia in the solvent, but the hydrophilic properties of ammonia.

Sweets began conducting various tests with their product and publicized their findings. They dropped match grade barrels into vacuum containers filled with Sweets for weeks on end. The barrels were inspected by numerous labs for signs of corrosion or etching. No problems were found.

HOWEVER - If you take a piece of barrel a soak it in an uncovered container partially filled with any solvent which contains a high concentration of ammonia - corrosion will begin to occur in very short order. Raise the temperature of the metal above 100 degrees F and you accelerate the corrosion process.

The bottom line is - follow the directions for the solvent, don�t get creative by using multiple solvents, completely remove all traces of the solvent from the barrel, and protect the barrel with CLP (BreakFree). If you do this, you will have no problems. But when was the last time any of us followed the directions?.....

I never said that ammonia by itself couldn't cause damage. It can if not used properly. As I said before in chem class we were taught that ammonia is hygroscopic. It attracts water. if you swab the bore and don't oil it afterwards it will promote rust. Then again allot of things can cause damage if used improperly. I would say that this guy should try firelapping his barrel. If it doesn't work then he is no worse off.

TomJ,

The zippers are down and the contest has begun in earnest, so I'll avoid the topics of ammonia and firelapping.

But since you seem to be interested in using your rifle for highpower shooting, you might check out

http://www.bjonessights.com/Used-parts/Tgt-bbls.html

Bob Jones is selling some used target barrels, in .308 and other calibers, that were originally on model 70's. Prices are very reasonable. Makers like Hart,Obermeyer,Kreiger and Douglas. 1000-1200 rounds through them, so there's plenty of life left in them. All for just about the cost of a Final Finish kit - $25-$35.

Regards,
Scott

"The zippers are down and the contest has begun in earnest"

I surely don't see that happening- the guys have an honest disagreement and it appears to be minus personal BS. Not a dam thing wrong with people not agreeing on something...

I do use strong ammonia water to clean my bores-- with around a max of 15 minutes exposure. I can see no harm it brings, but I'll tell ya- Ray's been around too long for me to pass on what he's saying. Many smith's of good reputation say strong ammonia won't hurt bores if used with sense. Yet I'm taking delivery on a need stainless in a few months-- and still have doubts as to what to use for cleaning.

I use my own concoction of Commercial Amonia 25%...A quart mixed with a cup of Hydrogen peroxide..The old timers called it blue goop, it will eat the crap out of steel by a chemical reaction according to Jack Belk, and I believe that. it will frost a bore as will CR-10 which I also use...I follow the directions and leave it soak for 10 minutes and wipe it out, repeat until you get a clean patch..Nothing complicated about that.

Remember a barrel does not have to be squeeky clean to shoot, thats just BS, least you would have to clean between each shot and fouling shots would not be necessary..coper wash hurts nothing, built up deposits sometimes do...I have a gun that I dare not clean, if I do it won't shoot for a 100 rounds, wish all of them were like this one....

Just run a few wet patches down the bore and then a few dry ones. you will be fine for awhile...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

For what it's worth, you might consider this: Make up about three DUMMY rounds (no powder or primer), with your chosen bullet seated to the length you want. Send them to Douglas Barrels, along with your action, and any other instructions such as desired length and contour, CM or stainless. They will turn a barrel to your specs, and chamber to your dummy cartridges. Of course, Pac-Nor, Kreiger, Obermeyer, Hart, or Shilen will do the same--but Douglas can save you a few bucks on a quality product.

------------------
Happiness is a 200 yard bughole.

Ray, I don't soak my bores - I don't need to because these barrels were broken in properly in the first place and I stay ahead of the game by not allowing copper build-up. All of my custom barreled hunting rifles group under .5" Many shooters fall under the false security thinking their barrels are clean, then one day the rifle quits shooting and they can't figure out why. If you don't have a bore scope then run a clean white patch down your supposedly clean barrel from the muzzle within .5" to .25" of the throat, now look down the chamber with a good lite or natural lite. If you let that build-up go it will become "accumulated copper build-up" only an abrasive cleaner will clean it out. I have "soaked" badly neglected barrels overnite and then cleaned with JB paste. The barrels were fine, the accuracy returned and the owners thought I was a saint. Talk to any custom barrel maker and they will tell you copper fouling in the throat area is the main culprit in diagnosing "returned barrels that won't shoot". The owners did not clean their bores properly. You should also never shoot from a "dry bore", after cleaning and dry patching one should run a wet patch of gun oil followed by one dry patch. No fouler shots should be necessary.

By the way Butch will replace any barrel damaged from using Butches Bore Shine ammonia based bore cleaner. "Soak it as long as you want" Butch says. The people from Bore Tech make the same claim with their ammonia based copper remover.

Like I stated before all of my custom rifles group under .5" (100yds) so I must be doing something right. sure-shot

I do not find your white patch lite method of any pratical merit, for there's no way to see this from the muzzle some 20"+ away. I do insert a white patch an inch or so from the muzzle which will reveal jacket fouling with light shown in. I do check throat/leade area and slightly forward by inserting an ammonia patch thru the bore saver just into that area- and checking the degree of blue or blue green staining of the patch.

A good majority of the hunters don't have the extra 4-500 bucks to dump into a custom barrel. And the small margin of accuracy is really of no use in 90% of hunting conditions- where the animal is taken well under two hundred yds.

aladin, if you look from the chamber end(bolt removed) into the throat area you can sometimes see some evidence of copper fouling in the throat. The white patch will help reflect the copper. I learned this from an old benchrest shooter although it is not a sure-proof way, it will depend on the chambering, action, eyesight etc. The ammonia patch system you mentioned works well I use it also. The throat area is often overlooked by alot of shooters, the machine marks left by the reamer run lateral and tend to pick up copper, if neglected it will affect accuracy eventually. I know several shooters whose rifles won't group under an 1" with custom barrels, they blame the barrel maker. I've also know they will shoot up to 100rds before breaking out a cleaning rod. Just my thoughts. sure-shot

[This message has been edited by sure-shot (edited 11-18-2001).]

sureshot,
i am a student at the u of mt, and am interested in the study done here. i would like to know more about it if you remember when it was done or who published it, or how long ago? am interested to read the report, and maybe get to the bottom of this thing. Thanx

I have a long standing policy and that is I will bet a person with a "1/2" rifle" a $100.00 bill for each group he shoots 1/2" and he gives me $100.00 for each group over 1/2"....Bore 277 and over for 5 shot groups.

I have lost some bucks on one or two ocassions but I have made a bucket full of $100. bills in the process.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Better add sporting weight hunting rifles.

Ray, not that I disagree with your assesment of 1/2" rifles,and more importantly 1/2" shooters, but could you give me your definition of "sporting weight hunting rifle"? Like under 9 pounds complete, scope no greater than 9 power?

I'd rather go to Idaho than Vegas, and the odds might be better as well

And I humbly retract my comments regarding this thread becoming a whizzing contest. My earlier assesment was premature and wrong.

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scott Thornley (edited 11-21-2001).]