Gents:

I have a line on a BRNO 21-H, full-stock in 7 x 57. Is this a small ring intermediate length rifle, or small ring full-length action? Is this a well made action. What should I give for it? The stock has been chopped and then added onto.

Thanks,

Jordan

Up until the late '50s Brno made some high quality rifles on the small ring intermediate(?) action. The 21 series were 23.5" barrels with either a half (H) or full (F) stock. The 22 series were 20.5" barrels. These designations were American in origin and do not appear anywhere on the rifle.
The rifles usually had double set triggers, a butterknife handle, standard military floorplate, and a bolt shroud with a special 1/4 arc safety on the left. The bridges could be either square or round.
Stone mint condition could be worth $1500. Modified ones around $1000. Used ones would be less.

Jordan,
It is a very dangerous rifle. I will send you the funds to purchase it and send it to me so I can destroy it. I may have to examine it for some length of time before I do. Like 20.... 25 years.

Okay, you won't buy that. Kurt pretty much nailed it. You will find used ones in Gun List (look under English and European Rifles) ranging from $800 to $950. Mine I thought was a 22A and as he says it is 20.5" long. It has a barrel band , and open sights and matches exactly what Kurt has said. I took mine to Africa shortly after I stocked it. It is also in 7X57. My PH while I was there had a 8X60 in a 21 BRNO. Small world.

Thanks gentlemen. And Chic, I really appreciate you looking out for my personal safety like that! So, one last question, is it confirmed that it is in fact an intermediate length action? I should note, it appears to have a 20 inch barrel and although the owner says it is a 21-h, maybe it is a model 22. Is that action also intermediate length?

Thanks guys.

Jordan

Whoops! I reread the posts above which make clear that botht he 21 and 22 are intermediate length.

Thanks again guys.

Jordan

Jordan---

The magazine box is 2.350 long.

The difference, as I understand it, is with the receiver. One has intergral dovetail scope mounts and the other is a round-top.....usually with a pressed in knurling around the front ring. Most of the time the round tops are on half-stocked guns and the square bridged actions on the full stock model.

Both are amoung the finest actions ever made. The magazine box is stamped, but all custom bottom metal for the standard M-98s fits.

Jack:

Are you sure about that the mag box is only 2.35? That would make it too short to accomodate even the 7 x 57. Just wondering.

Thanks,

Jordan

Jordan

Congratulations to the rifle. GET IT if the price is right. Don't let any of the old dirty ones here on the forum take it from you

The 21 is a small ring mauser and is very well made. Treasure such a rifle

/ JOHAN

Gentlemen:

I bought the rifle. Thanks to all for the encouragement. Chic, it appears you have a nice stock pattern for for this rifle. Can you duplicate it for me if I sent you a piece of wood? Also, this is a full-stocked rifle, is it feasible to keep the barreled action as is but restock the rifle as a half-stock?

Thanks,

Jordan

Customstox

very nice rifle indeed

Would you like to show us some more close up on this rifle, don't be shy

Tell us more about caliber etc.
Cheers
/ JOHAN

Well shoot! I was only off by an inch!!

3.350 inside dimensions of the three factory boxes I have here. They're all the same. Plenty long enough for a 280, 9.3x62, 35 Whelen, etc.

Gentlemen:

A few more questions please. As indicated above, I bought this rifle. Some damn fool masquerading as a machinist [and clearly a fraud as far as his ability to appreciate a fine rifle] machined a couple divots in the rear bridge of this action. The are about a quarter inch in diameter and look as if they were done so that a screw could be screwed into a scope base from each side of the bridge so that the screw lip would then graps the side of the bridge and hold the scope ring on---sort of like the rear mount on a Leupold ring/base combo. In theory, is there any reason why a skilled 'smith could not weld up these divots and them machine them clean so they exactly match the profile of the bridge? The rear challenge would be recheckering/engraving the rear bridge where the welded spots are.

Next question: are the looks of this little jewel of a rifle improved at all by installing a different bolt handle [and here I am criticizing the previous owner!] Honestly, the butterknife bolt handle that the rifle came with does not appeal to me much.

Finally, this gun is a full-stock. I do not have the rifle in front of me yet [have to wait 'cause I am in Kalifornia] but can I convert this to a half stock [I would have a stock made] without much difficulty. In other words, is the hardware by which the full stock attaches at the muzzle easily removable?

Don't quite know what to do with this jewel. Given that the stock has been chopped at the butt and then length added and in view of the divots in the sides of the rear bridge there is less of an argument for customizing this baby, as opposed to leaving it in original configuration. A nice, light 257 Ackley would sure be fun.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Jordan

Jordan----

It sounds like you have an excellent project gun......I'm assuming the bore is good or better. If not it's simple to install one. They're a standard small ring M-98.

The rear bridge can be welded and remachined with some, but not serious, risk. The matting can be recut but it won't look exactly right....the original squiggles were rolled in so half of what you see is cast up metal. Engraving cuts away metal. The engraved lines will be half as deep as the original. Those marks are hard to repair and nearly impossible to duplicate. I'd suggest polishing the rear bridge recess. The scope ring covers it anyhow. It would be a great place for a family crest or personal mark that positively ID's the gun.

These actions are *really* nice. I get a case of the runnin slobbers anytime I'm around one.

A different bolt handle is no problem. The edge of the tang is already cut away slightly for the butter knife handle. That cut is expanded to fit the new one.

The forend is held to the barrel by a center screw and a slightly over center nose cap. Some have a small drilled and tapped hole on the bottom of the barrel a quarter inch behind the muzzle. It's easily plugged and a half stock installed.

That rifle has a great double-set trigger in it that is built into the unique bottom metal. There is no one big trigger slot filled with a double set assembly......the BRNO has dual slots for the triggers and the mechanism is built into the bottom plate like a Mannlicher.

The trigger guard is a shotgun type with a threaded stud that screws into the bottom plate and is attached to the butt stock with a wood screw through the extended tang.

The magazine box is stamped sheet steel and is fitted into the bottom plate like a Sako.

Standard M-98 bottom metal fits perfectly. If you buy a Blackburn specify 30-06 length.

All M-98 triggers fit just fine. It's common to replace the bottom metal which leaves you short two triggers....you need at least one.

I use Blackburn triggers with these actions and can't think of anything better.

It's a shame some hammer mechanics don't hesitate some before screwing something up, but for many, many years there were no rings available for these guns in the US. There were sometimes pretty cheap because of it......then some slobber sucker drills it for Weavers.......off center....odd size......oblong.......stripped threads..........filled and hammered shut and re-drilled.....off center.........odd size......

I'm gonna come back as a Murphy Ghost and haunt the Hell out of gunshops.....So beware out there you immitation gunsmiths. If your torch backfires and blows your fingers off it was me the gun preserving ghost that did it so you couldn't braze a scope mount on a Drilling or lean on a buffing wheel with a gun part.

all in fun.

Jack and Everyone:

Thanks very much for the information. I too am very excited about this little rifle. Jack, if I happen to be driving from Northern California through Idaho to my parents home in Cache Valley, Utah in the next month, is there a chance I could bring this rifle by your shop for a look-see?

I have no idea as to the condition of the bore. Can't wait to get this baby home though, swab the bore and just generally check her over. You mentioned the double set triggers. I could swear that this rifle only has one trigger lever [as I recall from looking at it in the gun store]. It may well be that someone has removed or replaced the original set triggers. I'll have to evaluate the situation when I get the rifle and then check on a Blackburn.

I believe your advise regarding repairing the rear bridge is well taken. I suspected that such an approach was feasible. I presume one will want to insure that his 'smith has the skill and experience to fill these divots without imparting too much heat to the action; same goes for installing a new bolt handle.

My inclination at this point is to clean up the rear bridge as you suggested, polish, reblue, etc. all metal work and then restock the rifle [as a half-stock] in a nice piece of walnut. Whether to rechamber is still an open question. From what I know, the 7 x 57 is a very well balanced cartridge, but in the deep recesses of my mind, a voice keeps calling out ever so feintly ".257 Ackley"!

Thanks again for all the information. I am not a gunsmith, so I need all the competent advise I can get on this project.

Jordan

Jordan,
Before you discount a full length stock, please take a look at this one.

http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/002368.html

I get short of breath when I look at that rifle. And they can shoot very well.

The 7X57 is an incredible round, don't sell it short. I would certainly retain it if the bore is good. Mine was pristine and looked like it had never been fired.

The divots on the rear bridge? Were they on the center of the bridge? If so they were for certain rings that were used on the rifle. I have seen them a number of times.

Speaking of rings, the best rings for this rifle were made by Tom Burgess in Kalipell Mt. Unfortunately they go for $300 if you can even find them. Morris Melani is making the same rings and they are wonderful. The rear bridge should have a recess on the left side that a recoil lug on the ring locked into. I have some photos of the rings I will post tomorrow, along with the little divots on my bridge.

I do not have a pattern for this rifle. the easiest thing to do is to build one utilizing your existing stock. Bondo here and there, some judicous shaving here and there and you are ready to go. We might even make a stockmaker out of you when we are done.

Is this what the divots look like?



[ 08-28-2002, 10:50: Message edited by: Customstox ]

Jordan---

I'b be happy to take a look. It sounds like somebody took the rear trigger out and only used it as a single stage trigger with the front one.

Would you believe I have an extra??

Give me a call and we'll take a look at it. The welding must be done right......there're a million wrong ways to do it wrong.

Chic--- That is a familiar looking divot on the dovetail. I have a ZKW with the same thing!

I second the Malanie rings. They're great.

Gentlemen:

Re the divots: They are on the side of dovetails about in the center of the rear bridge---one on each side of the bridge. Imagine that someone took a qurater-inch [I am "guesstimating"] end-mill, layed the rifle on its side and then fed the end-mill into the side of the dovetail so that about half the mill was cutting steel and the other half was above the bridge. That is what I have. I get the impression that someone was holding rings onto the bridge on the same theory as the Leupold rear ring, you know with the two screws, one on each side, the upper half of the head of which grasps the shoulder of the ring [am I saying anything intelligible here??!]

After reading Jack's post, I believe they can be welded in and then the rear bridge dressed up in that area to blend with the surrounding steel.

Chic, I doubt we will ever make a stock maker out of the likes of me, but the confidence is appreciated.There is always hope, I suppose!

Jack: would you be willing to reserve that extra trigger for me? Please post me at my e-mail addy with a price. I would appreciate it if you will let me wait a week or two before confirming the purchase in order to confirm that in fact, my rifle is missing its trigger. Once my travel plans are confirmed, I will let you know so we can perhaps hook up. You are in Twin, yes?? I trust living so close to Ray does not make life too difficult! [Just kidding of course!]

Chic: Your advise is well taken as to giving the 7 x 57 a chance. I owe it to the rifle to check out the bore first and shoot the thing, see how it does. I believe I can suppress those voices in my head calling out ".257 Ackley" at least long enough to give the 7 x 57 a chance.

Thanks to all.

Jordan