Just curious, I'm playing around with some scrap gun metal and I've done the process 3 times It's starting to turn but not were it needs to be yet.

How many time (average) does it take to get satisfactory result?

Thanks
Terry

Basic answer is it depends.
The alloy of the metal
The blueing solution
The humidity
The Temp
Etc
all impact the results.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Just curious, I'm playing around with some scrap gun metal and I've done the process 3 times It's starting to turn but not were it needs to be yet.

How many time (average) does it take to get satisfactory result?

Thanks
Terry

Ramrod's right about the variables.

In my experience, using Mark Lee's solution in the humid summer months I usually do 10 or even 12 passes. It's usually black before then, but I keep applying the bluing solution until it just doesn't want to rust anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by belaw:


I keep applying the bluing solution until it just doesn't want to rust anymore.

I never thought about that.

THANKS!

It would be foolish of me to claim I have a "perfected" process, but the biggest improvement in my rust bluing was when I built a "damp box".

Control of, and consistent humidity and temperature remove a whole bunch of variables.

I also use Mark Lee's (#3 I believe). I'm typically pleased after 5 or 6 passes. I'm going to try Gun Godess? next. Scrollcutter and Chic prefer that, and I'd like to compare the results.

GV

Details about your "damp box" please. I live in the arid portion of Idaho, and have to spit to get the humidity above 25%.

Thanks,

lawndart

Terry-

Six passes with Gun Goddess.



Jim Baiar suggests that with Gun Goddess, there's not much to be gained after six or seven passes: Some pitting may be observed.

I have a small crock-pot in the bottom of my humidity box. At first it was pumping out too much moisture.

Now I use a 40 watt light bulb to heat the steel enough to avoid condensation.

What you're looking for is a dusting of small grained rust.

This takes me about two hours.

Do not be alarmed if at first some areas don't seem to be rusting. For me, at least, it turned out fine.

flaco

And good luck.

Rust bluing is a really rewarding process. I'm certain you'll feel very accomplished when it's done.

And all your friends will want you to blue their rifles, too. LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
Details about your "damp box" please.

Mine is a copy of one that John Bivins gave instructions for in the American Rifleman. (many years ago) There was a book that was a compilation of a number of American Rifleman articles about gunsmithing......perhaps still available somewhere.

The box is 5' tall......John built black powder long guns, and needed this length. I built the same, because...well, ya never know.

An electric bulb (surrounded by foil as a heat shield) is the heat source for the pan. A second lamp is in the "chamber" to ward off any condensation problems. Both bulbs are on a rheostat (side of the cabinet). I also vary the size bulb depending upon the humidity and temperature of the area and time of year. Wisconsin varies wildly in temp and humidity depending on the season.

You don't want the water to be excessively hot.....just tepid. I do most of my bluing up at my cabin. I have a large 3-burner inline stove for boiling, and Momma is much happier if I'm not in her kitchen.

My procedure varies a lot between winter and summer. In winter time the cabin is heated with a wood stove, and that's a very dry heat. The damp box requires more heat and more water then. I would presume rust bluing in very humid climates might require a small exhaust fan in the box.....which would be the opposite condition of what I described above.

GV

I just read in Branko Bogdanovitch's book on Serbian and Yugoslavian Mausers that their rust-blued parts made 7 trips through a steam cabinet.

(Those were the prewar Mausers, not M24/47s and M48s.)

So you can do the whole gun in a couple days?

I do a minimum of six passes, whether it looks done or not. Often with 3 or 4, it looks done. I use a damp box that is similar to GV's. Mine has a bulb at the bottom and a water pan sits over it and a heat bulb further up. Both are on rheostats so I can control the temp and humidity. I use Gun Goddess and start with 4 to 5 hours for the first pass. I use decreasing amounts of solution for each pass and the later passes can go a bit longer as the amount of "rusting" is greatly diminished.

The real answer is to *%$#@$E&-ing many! Rust blueing sure leaves a nice finish but it is a chore and a half.

Seafire, With an "express" rust blue you can even do a gun in a day! I did both of these in a very long day each:



they took 11-12 passes with Lee's express formula.....................DJ

Grandview,
That story was in RIFLE Mag. and was reprinted in Gunsmithing Tips and Projects by Wolfe Pub. it is still the best article on How-to rust bluing that I've seen.
I built a "temporary" sweat box about the time that article came out and am still using it.
SDH

What's with all this sissy damp box stuff.

I don't need no stinking damp box.

'Course I live in an area that gets down to a low of 70% humidity in the summer. In the winter it runs 85-95% all the time.

DJ...Check your blueing under a strong 100w lamp. It will look red. Within 2-3 yrs the whole job will be turning red that you can see from across the street. I learned the hard way. I've been rust bluing for over 20 years and have tried virtually all, if not all the solutions available including home made. Don't bother... get Baiar's blue, learn to use it and you will never go back to any other. You won't need to.

here are some instructions for anybody who might be interested

http://www.winrest.com/blueinstructions.html

quote:

Originally posted by Scrollcutter:

DJ...Check your blueing under a strong 100w lamp. It will look red. Within 2-3 yrs the whole job will be turning red that you can see from across the street. I learned the hard way. I've been rust bluing for over 20 years and have tried virtually all, if not all the solutions available including home made. Don't bother... get Baiar's blue, learn to use it and you will never go back to any other. You won't need to.

Scrollcutter, as much as I respect your opinion and expertise I think you are wrong on this one. I Blued the gun on top 5 years ago and even examining it just now with my 500 Lumen Surefire M-6 it ain't the least bit red. In sunlite or normal light it's black. The gun on bottom is a 3 year old blue job and isn't red either. Here's a pic in strong sunlight:



I'm nowhere near the expert on Rust-bluing that you are but the method I used was exactly what the Rust-Bluer from Turnbull and Associates told me at the Tulsa Wannemacher show. I haven't heard of them having too many red-shift recalls if they have had any.
With my luck I might pull one out of the safe 10 years from now and see all red but so far what you have mentioned isn't the case for twice as long as you said it would take to effect......................DJ

Roger--
To be clear...what brand name is "Baiar's" blue marketed under and could you give me a quick rundown of your procedure?

quote:

Originally posted by gnmkr:
Grandview,
That story was in RIFLE Mag. and was reprinted in Gunsmithing Tips and Projects by Wolfe Pub. it is still the best article on How-to rust bluing that I've seen.
I built a "temporary" sweat box about the time that article came out and am still using it.
SDH

Ooops....right you are, Steve.

I just assumed I got the plans from the "NRA Gunsmithing Guide". It is indeed in "Gunsmithing Tips & Projects" published by Wolfe Publishing Company in 1989. And the articles are reprinted from RIFLE Magazine as you stated.

Actually, there are two different plans for the Bivins damp box. In later guise John used a thermostatically controlled hot plate and a water pot rather than the bulb and pan.

Lots of good stuff in that book.

GV

Gun Goddess

Jim Baiar
Half Moon Rifle Shop
490 Halfmoon Road
Columbia Falls, MT 59912

406-892-4409

Imagine that, local call.

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
the method I used was exactly what the Rust-Bluer from Turnbull and Associates told me at the Tulsa Wannemacher show.

What is the procedure DJ? Please share with the group if you do dont mind....

dj, Roger is not the only one that has experienced that same issue with express blues. I have spoken to a number of folks who do it professionally and all that have tried it found the same results. The time frame for he deterioration may have not been but the results were. They have discarded that method and gone back to slow rust bluing. There is not free lunch with a rust blue.

Chic, I have no doubts that some have had problems with with express stuff, I was just pointing out that mine hadn't yet. As I've said before I'm still learning and am all about finding the best way of doing things. Upon your and Roger Kerr's recommendations I'll probably try the stuff you reccommend. But perhaps by sheer luck the two I have done haven't turned red yet..............DJ

22WRF,

I just looked at the link you posted. There is no way the parts should be allowed to rust that much. Sheeze... I'm glad that isn't my rifle!

Speaking with NECG at SCI, they generally recommended Turnbull Restorations for very good RustBlueing , however they did mention another individual who they believed did a superior job(and more $$$...$800? for a full magnum mauser), but cannot remember his name....will find out.

$800.00 Wow! I charge $250.00 for a standard rifle.

Probably a stupid question, but here goes. If you don't have a properly humid area, does it matter if it takes say two days to get the full rust coverage per coat as opposed to 2-3 hours? Does this just lengthen your completion time and have no effect on the finished product?

MKane160

MKane160,

No, it's more of a hit or miss on the rusting. By that I mean it's uneven and splotchy rust. You really need a damp box to turn out a quality job.

Rust bluing is not really a difficult procees. It's time consuming, but not that difficult. Just make sure everything is super clean. The diffuculty in this type of bluing is if/when things start going wrong. That's where experience comes into play.

If you are only going to do a couple of blue jobs, it's probably not worth the expense to set up for it. I have around 1200 bucks invested in my setup. But, I went with immersion heaters and stainless tanks. Though I built the tanks and lids myself, the material itself is spendy. You could get started for less I suppose. But, in for a penny, in for a pound is the way it really works. Try doing the work with crappy equipment and you are always fighting it.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Where can one get a bottle of this Goddess Rust Blue solution.

Check out flaco's post.

I used Pilkington's with about 6 to7 passes.

Swed

Swed

What does everybody use for a degreaser beforehand?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
What does everybody use for a degreaser beforehand?

I wash everything in Sunlight dish detergent then 'Mean Green Cleaner/Degreaser'. If the water sheets on the metal, it's good to go. If the water beads, more washing is needed.

I use disposable latex gloves and prior to handing the gun parts, I wash my hand with the degreaser.

I also degrease my steel wool and carding wheel in acetone prior to use. If I'm feeling really anal, I'll wipe all the metal parts with acetone.

quote:

Originally posted by MKane160:
Probably a stupid question, but here goes. If you don't have a properly humid area, does it matter if it takes say two days to get the full rust coverage per coat as opposed to 2-3 hours? Does this just lengthen your completion time and have no effect on the finished product?

MKane160

Since no one has answered, I'll tell you what I do. I quit using the sweatbox because I was rarely around long enough to be there when it was ready to come out. If I left it in there too long, it would pit.

So, I rust it in the open air of my rather dry basement for 12 hours at a time. I put a coat on in the morning, boil it in the evening and recoat. Boil again in the morning and recoat. So, I get two coats per day and I'm done in a short week (usually 8-10 coats). It only takes about 30 minutes to do a boil/card/recoat so I just set the alarm a titch early to get tihs done.

The less time between coats, for a given rate of rusting, the smoother the final finish will be.


Brent

I didn't use a sweatbox either. Just wait 4 hours like the directions say and boil, then card with a wire wheel and recoat..etc.