all right guys, specifically on the venerable 09 argentine.

sending them for carbon addition, re-carburizing, re-hardening (whatever you want to call it, it is the addition of carbon to the surface) versus color case hardening. doesn't the color case process do the same thing, harden the surface? what is the difference of depth and the difference in hardness?

You wouldn't send one to Pacific and then have it color cased right? just send it for the color casing? is the argentine one of the ones more prone to warping? is the color case HARDENING sufficient?

and just to save those of you who can't help discussing side issues when we get these topics I'll settle some TRUTHS here (not believing the truth is up to you)

1. argentines should be hardened
2. color cased bolt actions look tits delicious

oh, some other questions while on the subject
- if they need engraving, do you engrave before or after the color case work?
- does the bolt need to be treated the same? i.e. if the bolt is hardened normally but the action cased, does this cause a problem with the different hardnesses between them?

Red

Color case hardening is more cosmetic, that is a thinner layer of carburized steel.Case hardening is thicker and can be easily adjusted.
Make sure you send it to an experienced heat treater who does guns .They will know how to minimize warping. There is no sense in NOT Ht'ing after case hardening.Send out the whole receiver including bolt .They can check hardness before and after.Hardness will not be very high [HRc 40-45 IIRC].You can engrave at that hardness but ask your engraver .

Your engraver will tell you to anneal the steel completely before engraving begins. Please see some of Col Whelen's descriptions and also accounts by engravers of their difficulties encountered with hard steel. Order of precedence: finish wood parts of the rifle, anneal and polish metal parts, engrave, re-heat-treat, finish metal parts. IOW the engraving is normally the third-to-last thing to be done, with the re-hardening and metal finishing to follow. Of course as always, YMMV.

There are several different types of case-hardening/carburizing processes, some can add vivid colors while others are more subdued. The heat-treater can adjust the amount of carbon added in order to achieve the desired result, but you hafta tell him what you want.

There are several smiths who offer this service in addition to the several industry job-shops specializing in re-heat-treating firearms; choose your workman carefully because they aren't equal in either experience or judgement.

Lots of differing opinions as to the efficacy and even the safety of re-hardening receivers. Well-respected smiths will say that it's totally unnecessary and quite dangerous while equally-respected smiths swear by it and do it all the time. Like the Madam said to the Bishop, "You pays your money and you takes your choice!"
Regards, Joe

IIRC, the CC process weakens the structure of the steel,and any repeated CC process weakens it further,ie; accumulatively.
thats not the direction Id want an already old tech./non modern steel mauser to go in, but each to his own.

I can't see the point of it FWIW. Except to make money for people that do these things.

If you have concern about its strength then have a recognised gun "laboratory" fire an over pressure "proof load" through it.

I don't know of any other gun that is subject to a second re-treating during its life?

It isn't done to old British double rifles, to old 1930's Smith & Wesson Magnum revolvers, to WWII 30-06 M1 Garands is it?

So why this idea to do it to old Mauser rifles? It is certainly not a thing done here in Europe by bespoke (custom) rifle builders AFAIK.

Did Paul Roberts at Rigby ever do it?

I know for a fact that H&H does on all the military 98 actions that they use for sporters.

One reason for re-carburizing Mausers is the practice of "lapping lugs" which can(in some cases) remove a significant amount of case skin. This is perceived to increase the likelihood of lug setback, especially with heavy calibers. Many surplus actions have also been "scrubbed" which removes the case hardening from the top of the receiver ring.

If properly annealed and normalized, then properly case hardened, there should be no issues. However those are two big "ifs". Follow this link to Scribd: http://www.scribd.com/ and open/download a copy of "The Modern Gunsmith", Howe. There is a whole chapter devoted to this process. After reading it, you will realize how many ways it can go wrong if you don't choose a knowledgeable heat treatment company.

Well lets clear something up.
For one ignore the long rant I've had way too much Scotch tonight

First off Carborizing is not the same as case hardening or color case hardening.

Carborizing is the process of adding carbon to a steel part so that a later heat treatment will yield desired results.

Case hardening is a process of hardening a steel part that has already been carborized and to that effect if you think the inner core is unmolested think again. the heat treat process also conditions the inner core. It is not as hard as the outer layer. but it is toughened to a great degree.

Now for all intents and purposes case hardening means carborizing and hardening as one motion or one process. and that is how it is spoken outside the furnace.

Now color case hardening in it's original process was just a few steps up from a blacksmith.
it is a very thin case and is not consistent in hardness or temper. It was a hell of a lot better then what was available at the time which was next to nothing.
That said the new process color case hardening is a bit different and is geared more toward being functional (thicker case) as well as pleasing to the eye. I have yet to play with the new process and doubt I ever will. But even still stainless coloration by heat is not the same as color case new or old process. what you are doing is tempering the steel. drawing it back. and you just may make it to soft to be useful. As for unsafe. Hardly... all you can do is make the steel softer which doesn't change it's yield strength much, like a few thousand PSI max. so if an action is going to explode there is no amount of heat treating that will save it. barring a double load, It was either a flawed action or it was too hard and therefore brittle. but any heat treat shop worth it's salt wouldn't let any part out of it's shop that didn't meet spec. either way if the action is too soft all it will do is set back the lugs and ruin the action. but it won't fly apart on you again baring a flawed action or a double load.

my opinion has an always will be if it ain't broke don't fix it till it is.
But when going to a more modern pressure level then say a 8X57 or an '06 i'd say it's money well spent. get it heat treated and just have some peace of mind

The main reason for re-heat-treating Mausers is that they are SOFT! Period, end of discussion.

No, you don't see anyone re-heat-treating Springfields or Enfields or Krags or Mannlicher-Schoenauers or almost any other bolt action. Reason? These actions, unlike the Mauser, almost never experience any lug setback because they are NOT SOFT!

Mauser apologists will say that the softness is either imaginary or is actually A Good Thing, but the fact remains that the Mauser actions are far, far more likely to experience lug setback than any other bolt action. This is a long-known fact and can't really be denied by anyone who's knowledgeable at all.

Now, whether you choose to have your rifle's action re-heat-treated, or not, is up to you. But to say that Mausers don't need the process is, IMO, to mark yourself as Cleopatra Queen of Denial.
Regards, Joe

sorry to resurrect after so long, the whole question I was trying to ask was, if you're going to have a mauser carburized, could you instead have it color case hardened or does that not harden to the same degree and to the same depth? would you first have it carburized THEN have it color cased?

Red

To rephrase - CCH is very thin and must be considered cosmetic. CH is thicker and can be adjusted for depth and hardness. I don't know if a piece can be CH then CCH.
My 1943 M98 was originally carburized but had soft and hard areas [wartime QC ].In addition I had lapped the lugs to get full contact on both lugs.So it was CH.

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
sorry to resurrect after so long, the whole question I was trying to ask was, if you're going to have a mauser carburized, could you instead have it color case hardened or does that not harden to the same degree and to the same depth? would you first have it carburized THEN have it color cased?
Red

I would send it, AFTER engraving, to a recognized case-coloring shop such as Turnbull, Classic or similar and discuss just exactly what sort of color design you're wanting. Some shops do only one style, others can produce more than one style & design. For instance CPA does a good job of duplicating original Stevens colors but this isn't what is usually wanted on a bolt rifle. Some industrial shops do a good job of caburizing but their colors are more subdued and not nearly as attractive IMO.
Regards, Joe

Carburizing and hardening and color case hardening are really the same thing taken to different conclusions. In both cases (NPI) the surface of the steel is infused with carbon by "cooking" it in carbon rich substance which is solid (charcoal) or gaseous (I used acetylene). The difference is in the treatment subsequent to carburizing. Color case hardening depends upon a bubbling water quench to get the colors while treatment for hardness without the colors may use a water quench or an oil quench depending upon the level of hardness required and the depth of the case. The nature of the quench used in color case hardening makes warpage a real possibility.
I did a lot lof carburizing and case hardening of tools and machinery parts for a time and never did reach the point where each project didn't feel a bit experimental. Some of my carburizing compounds had distictly voodoo feel about them and I sometimes wondered if I shouldn't have slaughtered a rooster as part of the process!
I have seen a Mauser receiver which had self destructed as result of stresses induced by the color case hardening process. I suspect this may have been an alloyed receiver (4140 or some such).
I've looked at quite a few Mauser actions which Martin Hagn had gotten color case hardened and I thought them very attractive. In one case though, the front tang of the bottom metal broke off due to excessive hardness and poor fitting by the stocker (not Hagn or Martini).
In the end, I would have to say it looks nice and usually works out fine. The actions as used by Martini or Hagn are done by (I believe) Doug Turbull and really are good looking and slick to operate. Regards, Bill

Dago,

I would call Doug Turnbull up and ask him, or whoever holds down the fort when Doug is out on a photo op for the gun rags.

He has been at it for a long time.

LD