I have a Wby Mark V chambered in 300 Wby. It is the chrome moly, 24� barrel. I have fired at least 700 rds (probably more like 800) through it. Recently my groups have started to open up. Last year at this time I was shooting 1� groups, now it is shooting 3�(when I am lucky). Could the barrel be worn out? I have tested everything that I can think of: screws tight, rifle support,ammo and the barrel looks fine to the naked eye. I always shoot 3-5 shots and then let the rifle cool for about 20 minutes.
Thanks in advance.
Shawn

Shawn - How are you cleaning the gun? What solvents? How max/hot are your loads?

Firing 5 consecutive shots can be a bit much with a hot load. Generally three shots will heat up a barrel quick. If it is too hot to hold onto, it is too hot. This is the quickest way to burn your throat out.

Have you checked your crown for damage. You may also want to swap scopes. 3" is way too much!!!

[This message has been edited by Zero Drift (edited 03-14-2002).]

I clean my barrel with Hoppes Bore Solvent followed by 3in1 oil. The barrel looks perfect (without the aid of a microscope). The crown is fine. My first 4-500 round were full loads, but the last few hundred have been ~4 grs below max. The barrel is never allowed to get too hot to touch. Usually I will fire 5 rds, wait 20 min., fire 3 rds and wait 20min, 3 more, etc.
I have had the same scope for the last 500 rds. It took so long to get mounts that would not fall apart, strip, etc that I am hesitant to switch the scope (it is a B&L Elite 4000 w/ a 6.5-24x, Adj Obj and 1/2" mil dot reticle which costs more than most of my guns).
Shawn

You might have a copper buildup. To take the copper out of your barrel try something like Barnes CR-10 or Sweets 7.62. Also use a nylon brush with the stuff and not a copper or brass bore brush. I generally use the copper solvent every 50 or so rounds. The regular bore solvent will not remove all the copper. I'd also make darn sure I have all that 3-1 out of the barrel. I use regular gun oil and then run a cotton patch through the bore before shooting to make sure I have cleaned all the oil out of it. That can affect both accuracy and pressure. Just a suggestion ... Tom Purdom

[This message has been edited by thomas purdom (edited 03-14-2002).]

Tom,
I'll try the Barnes CR-10. As for 3in1 oil left in the barrel- After I have finished cleaning the barrel, I run two dry patches through. That way there is no visible oil residue.
Thanks,
Shawn

Shawn460,

Old barrels can be saved using firelapping method, or a real good cleaning session.

I assume you shoot your handload. Accurate loads leave the muzzle when it is whipping to its most upper/lower position, but now your barrel is worn down and smoother, your original load may not leave the muzzle at the right moment, I suggest you change the powder weight a little bit and see if it improves accuracy.

Shawn - your barrel is fouled - period! I can tell you this without looking at your gun with complete confidence. You have a high pressure, high velocity, high heat barrel. Even though you think it is clean, it most likely has plenty of copper in the barrel. You are only removing powder fouling with Hoppes Bore Solvent - it is not powerful enough to really cut copper.

As thomas stated, grab some Sweets. Follow the directions to the letter. Apply the Sweets with either a saturated patch or a nylon brush. Do not use a bronze brush. Clean your coated rod and jag with your 3in1 oil after each application. Your jag will most likely turn black, this is OK. After 15 minutes, push a clean cotton patch through your bore. Keep doing this routine 5 or 6 times until you get clean patches.

After your cleaning session with Sweets, flood the barrel with BreakFree. Push a clean patch through to push out standing oil. Store the gun muzzle down for a day or so to ensure nothing migrates back into the action. I use a bore mop with BreakFree one more time and then store the gun.

Caution - High ammonia cleaners (Sweets, CR-10) are hygroscopic - attract water. Moisture and a squeaky clean barrel = rust. Make sure you use plenty of clean patches to remove the solvent and protect your bore with BreakFree.

Depending upon how fouled your barrel may be, it could take a few days of cleaning and storing to get everything out. If after two or three sessions your patches are still indicating fouling, a quick run down with JB will cut the last layer.

Under no circumstances would I recommend fire lapping a barrel with 500 or 600 rounds through it. Fire lapping at this point will only push the throat even further forward - this is bad even with a Weatherby freebore.

Better groups through chemicals - Sweets.

I just returned from the gun shop with Barnes CR-10. I will clean it tonight until the patches are perfectly clean, then oil, etc. Friday I'll take it to the range and see if this worked. I will post the results here.
I will also try this on my SKS- it used to be very accurate, but after 10-12000 rds it is not shooting very well.

Pyrotek or Zero Drift,
How do you fire-lap a barrel?

Thanks for all of the help.

Shawn

Your SKS could well be shot out after 10,000 rounds. However, there is hope for your Weatherby.

Fire lapping is best done with David Tubb's Final Finish. It is a kit with various sized lapping grit applied to lead (?) bullets. You simply reload them and shoot. This being said, I have never found the need to fire lap a gun. The process is very abrasive by design. You can achieve the same of better results by properly breaking in the barrel and using a little JB bore paste for really rough factory barrels.

Once your gun is clean, you might want to start using Butch�s Bore Shine at the range. I run a few patches through my bore before leaving the range. By the time I get back to the house, much of the copper is already soft. Another two applications over the next few hours, and all the copper is out. Unlike Sweets and CR-10, Butch�s is safe to leave in the barrel overnight.

I still use Sweets a lot to ensure my barrels are clean. Never use two different solvents to clean without fully removing the first solvent from your barrel. Under no circumstances should you mix copper solvents together. (Kroil and Shooters Choice is another matter designed for moly shooters.)

Let us know how things go...

.

[This message has been edited by Zero Drift (edited 03-15-2002).]

Shawn460- While I suspect that your bore may be just copper fouled, you can tell for sure if you make a cerrosafe cast of your throat and chamber. If this looks good proceed as follows: If it doesn't go straight to your gunsmith.
I shoot alot of very high velocity cartridges that often copper foul badly. What I do is wipe the barrel with Hoppes until its clean, using a good bore guide, then take a cleaning brush, wrap a tight fitting patch around it and add some JB cleaner. Stroke the barrel 20 times with the JB saturated patch in the chamber/throat area 20 times, then replace the JB patch with a fresh one and stroke the barrel 20 times. Re-Clean with Hoppes, then try a Sweets patch. If you still are getting blue/green color, you still are fouled. Repeat the JB/Hoppes/sweets sequence until clean. Shoot two foulers and a three shot group with the barrel never getting more than luke-warm. If you still don't have the accuracy you had before, most likely your barrel is history. good luck-Rob

Arsenal records of .30 caliber bbls used in machine guns found that accuracy fell off after about 10,000 rounds but it was restored by laping!

If the cleaning with the chemicals does not work then try the JB's as suggested. If it still does not shoot then lap it.

However something else could be wrong. Stocks crack, scopes come loose inside. Mounts bend or come loose and crowns get damaged.

I doubt the bbl is worn out.

I just spent about 1.5 hours cleaning the barrel with CR-10. Following the directions exactly, it took 10 sets of cleaning before the patch would come out clear. Tomorrow I will sneak off to the range and see if this fixed the problem. I still cannot tell the difference in the barrel versus before cleaning. Copper fouling must be on a microscopic level.

I will post tomorrow with the results from the range.

How many rounds would a 300 Wby barrel be good for?

Shawn

Shawn, sounds about right. Remember, you will need a few 1 - 5 fouling shots before your gun will group again. I would shoot no more than 15 to 20 rounds between cleaning. Some of us more anal types actually take our cleaning crap to the range with us to clean between strings.

Good Luck & let us know what happens....

I hope your problems are taken care of Zero Drift. Like I said before, I like to clean with CR-10 after every 50 rounds or so. I used to be one of those anal folks mentioned who would take cleaners to the range, but with the constant wind here in New Mexico, I was taking the fouling out of the barrel and putting it into the environment when wind blew the patches off into the sunset. Now, all that said, I had a Ruger Mark II in 7x57mm Mauser in which the accuracy went to patterns on me after just 2,000 rounds. I sent the rifle back to Ruger, who put another barrel on it. That one too went bad, this time after only 1,500 rounds and the rounds were warm, but certainly not anything that would eat a barrel. Finally, one Ruger technician told me that my barrel probably had a "soft spot" in it. I never could get what the heck he was talking about, so I traded the rifle off for a CZ550 American in the same caliber (after telling the gun shop I traded at that the barrel had a "soft spot" and would no longer shoot all that well) and am not looking back at all. The "soft spot" thing kinda reminds me of that movie "Joe and the Volcano" where the doctor told Joe he had a "brain wave." Anyway, I hope the CR-10 and copper removal solves your problems ... Tom Purdom

Sorry Zero Drift, I meant Shawn 460 on the above post! Tom

Not to worry thomas - I've gots lots of problems too.

I just returned from the range after firing 24 rds from 3 different boxes of ammo. The gun is shooting just as poorly as before. The box of 180gr Win Silver Tips usually shoots sub 1" at 100 yds- today, I only got one 2" group with the other being ~4". The other ammo shot from 3" to 7" groups. Does the rifle need more shots through it or something else at fault?

Shawn

Shawn, do you have another scope that you can slap on the gun? If so, do it and take a friend to the range. Have them shoot the gun as well and compare targets. Something is wrong other than fouling - obviously.

You use 3 in 1 oil??? I ruined an antique Winschester with it as a kid. It was all Gramps had. We dutifly whiped the rifle down with it after each time we handled it. Destroyed the finish. Too bad too, it was a mint specimin before the 3 in 1 ruined it. Nasty deep pitting all over. Later a lifelong gunsmith and firearms musuem curator told me that 3 in 1 has acid purposly added to break rusty hinges and such free. I personally won't let a drop in my house. Think twice before you poke it down your bore.

[This message has been edited by scot (edited 03-16-2002).]

I don't have another scope that can take the recoil! Money is tight right now, so I may have to wait a few months before testing the rifle with a new scope.

As for the oil issue, I have used 3in1 oil for the past 20 years. All of my guns look brand new with flawless finishes! I have seen what happens when people use Rem Oil as well as some of the other "recommended" gun oils (this same issue was covered by Gun Test a couple years ago). I will never use anything else for my gun oil both inside and outside of the barrel. If anyone ever questions the quality of 3in1 for guns, all they have to do is see my two Wby rifles. If it will keep a high gloss blue looking perfect, then it is good for any gun finish (any finish that I know of at least).

[This message has been edited by Shawn460 (edited 03-16-2002).]

Shawn 460 -- Now I'm puzzled too. I thought for sure you had copper fouling. I re-read all the posts before making further comment, like checking for crown damage, but you've done that. I just cannot see how 800 rounds would wear out the barrel. I still wonder about the 3-1 oil. It sounds like you are removing it, but just for the heck of it, why not clean it good again, with CR-10 first, then with Hoppe's and use a regular gun oil and just before shooting, patch it out of the barrel as well. In stead of getting another scope, if you have another rifle of known grouping quality, switch scopes and see if you open up there too, then you'll know. If you don't have another rifle, if you have a buddy with a rifle of known shooting quality, if he'll let you switch just for a test, go for that too. It would be a lot less costly than buying a new scope right off the bat. You'll know by switching scopes. You could also have had some stock warpage. You should, by all means, contact Weatherby with this. Keep us posted. I'm really interested. Tom Purdom

Although the scope appears to be good, I am beginning to suspect that this is the problem. I have several other scopes, but the only one that can handle the recoil is on my 460 Wby (Leu. 1.5-5x). The power settings of the scope are not enough for me to really test the 300. Plus, having a scope properly mounted on one of these rifles is a challenge.(It took 3 ring/bases to get a scope to stay on my 300- and the 460 came with a scope on it).
I don't trust my 4-16x Tasco on my 10/22 to hadle the recoil. I would hate to shake apart a scope needlessly.
Shawn

A gun that suddenly goes from 1" to 3plus" groups has something loose or you've shot 300 and 460Wby to many times .

1. Action screws loose.

2. Scope mounts/bases loose or scope defective. Put your leopold on it and see. Shoot from 50 yds if necessary.

Wally

Shawn,
Zerodrift and Robgunbuilder did you right on cleaning your bore. Now that part of the puzzle is ruled out I would suggest you pull the barreled action annd inspect your stock for cracks, splits and warpage. You stated you had a 24" barrel so I take you have one of the older Weatherbys(German or Japan made) I have seen several Weatherby stocks(wood) split in the rear tang area, owned one myself that did that. If you have a bad stock Weatherby might replace it. The muzzle crown and optics, mounts are also areas you might want to inspect as others suggested. Keep us posted. sure-shot

Shawn-A 300 WBY is not a 460 WBY when it comes to recoil although the recoil pulse is short and quick and has been known to break even good scopes( yes- even leupolds). Check your scope bases and rings carefully, Make sure nothing is broken or loose, then pull your 1.5X5 off your 460 and stick it on the 300. That scope can take the recoil of a 300 wby easily. Zero it and shoot at 100 yrds. You will either find your problem was your scope or your barrel is history.If you have an optical colliminator or can get one, you can get a pretty good idea if your present scope is trashed by zeroing the crosshairs and then moving them 15 clicks up, down, and sideways. If you can return to zero properly then it is most likely not the scope. Most broken scopes have reticle problems and this simple test will help you diagnose it. Nevertheless, the best test is a known good scope. I assume you have already checked your stock for cracks and made sure the action screws are tight. However, I suspect its your scope!-Rob

OK, I have tried a number of things to solve the problem.
I thoroughly inspected the stock for cracks. None were found.

The action screws were tested, both were tight (after about ever other trip to the range I check and tighten screws of all of my guns).

The barrel/action was removed from the stock. The stock was further tested for cracks and warped. Everything checked out fine.

The rings and bases were inspected and checked out fine.

Next, went to remove the scope- problem. Apparently, the gun shop that mounted my scope used the permanent type of Locktite. I just about broke my star screwdriver bit(it is now badly twisted, but it will still work). I guess that I will need to drill out the screws and then buy new rings- which really sucks! Before I do anything serious like that, is there anymore ideas? Also, what type of Leupold should I get in 3-9x? I am on a budget, but if I have to replace my rings, I might as well get a new scope, right?

Thanks for all of your help,
Shawn

[This message has been edited by Shawn460 (edited 03-17-2002).]

Heat will breakdown the LocTite compound, try putting a soldering iron point against the screw for a few minutes and then trying again. If you are on a budget and want a Leuopold, the new VariX 1 is probably your best bet. Hope this helps. - Dan

Shawn- Dan is absolutely right. Heat the screws with a soldering iron and when they get hot enough they should come out. If you have buggered them up, drill out only the head of the screws. you can then take the remaining screw sections out with a pair of pliers.
As for scopes, I strogly reccomend any of the Leupold Vari-X III scopes. They have taken the pounding of all my wierd stuff pretty well. However, sometimes even a real good scope gives up the ghost. I had it happen two weeks ago on a 1.5-5 VarX-III. Sent it to Leupold and they sent it back in a week.Totally fixed and no charge. Don't forget to Lap your scope into the rings and add a dap of lapping compoun under the rings to keep it from moving in the future. Lapping the rings properly so that there is no stress on the scope barrel will go along way in keeping a heavy kicker from breaking a scope. Keep away from cheap scopes like Tasco etc. on serious guns, You will only regret it later. By the way BearBasin has pretty good deals on Leupolds.-Rob

The soldering iron trick did not work. I guess that the screws will have to be drilled out. It seems that the cure for my rifle won't come easy. Within the next couple days I will switch scopes so that I can test the rifle this weekend. I will keep you informed. Hopefully this will take care of the problem. If it turns out to be my scope, where can I send it for repairs? I had heard that B&L was bought out a couple years ago. Does anyone know who bought them and if they will honor B&L warranties?
Shawn

Shawn-Get a Torx screwdriver that fits your screws.They are a Torx bit arn't they? Have someone tap the top of the Torx driver with a hammer while you turn the handle. They should unscrew. If not find a drill bit just the same size as the screw heads and drill till just the head is gone. The top of the mounts should then pull off the studs. remove the studs with pliers.
Depending on which B&L scope you have on that 300 WBY,I'm only suprised it lasted this long. I don't own any so I can't advise on where to send them for repairs. I'd try their website.-Rob

Bausch & Lomb is now Bushnell (and have been for quite some time, actually) so I assume that Bushnell would be the one's to contact about warranty. I agree with Rob, if the soldering iron and tapping the bits didn't work, just drill off the screw heads, remove the top ring and scope, and remove the rest of the screw with lock pliers. Good luck. - Dan

This might sound a little obvious but in one of your early posts you mentioned the gun shot great for the first 500 rounds or so using full poer loads. But the last couple of hundred rounds the groups have opened up? Didn't you also just start using loads about 4 grians below your max loads? You changed the recipe for success and now are wondering why the meal doesn't taste the same?

I started reducing my loads a couple years ago. The reduced loads did not always shoot as well as the hot ones, but they were still much better then the current grouping. Additionally, I still have a box or two of the full loads (the Win Silver Tips mentioned earlier were one) and they are not shooting like they used to. I also had the perfect load for my rifle in the form of 180gr Ballistic Silver Tips. These bullets gave me the greatest accuracy for this rifle (sub 3/4" groups) and last Friday they grouped at about 5".

I am very hesitant to take the scope off of my 460 since it is properly mounted and working fine (those of you that have big bores can appreciate how hard it can be to get a scope to stay in place on one of these guns). I guess that I need to wait for money or sell a gun to pay for a scope (I have never sold one of my guns and plan on keeping this perfect record in place).

One option would be to buy a box of Wby ammo. Wby ammo has always worked a little better than my loads- if my rifle cannot shoot Wby ammo, then the problem has to be the scope.

Kentucy, you've opened a very interesting point. Can it be possible that rifles develop a "memory". A "groove" which flexes and vibrates to the perfect rhythum su9ited to the barrel of any particular firearm. If this particular WBY was accustomed to a particular load and had developed such a memory after the hundreds of rounds and was then suddenly fed a new load which was not producing the same "good vibes", could it really go out of sync and no longer be a tack-driver? Very interesting thought.

You have done the diagnosis, the problem is the scope. In stead of buying a box of WBY ammo and proving the obvious why not try the scope coliminator test and convince yourself once and for all. If the scope won't return to zero from 15-20 clicks in all directions its history.-Rob

Rob,
I do not have a colliminator- is this something that my gunsmith would have? Or should I go to a gun shop?
Shawn

Shawn- Yup your gunsmith has one and most probably there is one at your local range for all the guys who show up with a new scope and have not a clue how to adjust it.You can buy one from midway for much less than a box of 300WBy factory ammo. Your scope should track up down, right and left repeatably 15-20 clicks or about 4-5 inches if it is working properly. Anything else is a wrecked reticle.-Rob

I don't know if this will help, my 270 Winchester M70 started shooting 2 inch groups, it normally was 1 inch. I took what they call over here, Scrub's Cloudy Ammonia, or else Scrub's of Ammonia, it is 8% Ammonia, I put a fired case in the breach, so none can seap out, poured some in till the barrel is full. Left it for 12 to 14 hours. I removed it, and cleaned it with normal gun cleaning things, used balistol, wd 40 and a few other gun cleanings stuff. It started shooting where I wanted it.

Try it, can't make it worse. Your gun should not be shot out in so little shots

Flip,
I already did a very thorough cleaning with Barnes CR-10 which, I believe, is roughly the equivalent of what you described. Essentially, I already removed all of the copper fouling, so this problem should be ruled out. It appears as though the scope is at fault. I will take it to my gunsmith next week and have him check the reticle adjustment repeatability.