D'Arcy Echols' post on bluing wear got me wondering...

Setting aside the rust blue vs. caustic debate, I was wondering if some of you guys with heavy experience can discuss the relative qualities of the available rust bluing products.

The four commercially available formula's I'm aware of are Gun Goddess, Mark Lee #3, Pilkington's and Laurel Valley Forge Barrel Brown. My experience is very limited and I've only use the first two, but found that they are indeed very different products.

Gun Goddess is a hot- VERY hot- formula that would probably make an ice cube rust. However, I've had inconsistent results with it, mainly pitting on small parts that I had to polish out and start over. Mark Lee's solution is slower, requiring about 10 coats to give a good finish in my (limited) experience. I can't quantify it, and it may not be real, but I believe that I get a finer grained finish with Mark Lee than with Gun Goddess. My current practice is to use Gun Goddess for the first coat or two, to sort of kick-start the rusting process, then I switch to Mark Lee's rust blue. I basically keep applying the acid formula in lighter coats until the part starts to resist rusting.

I've never tried Pilkington's, but understand that it is similar to the old Niedner formula, with hydrochloric as well as nitric acid. Is this correct and, if so, is after-rusting a problem?

I've also never used the Laurel Valley Forge product, but understand that it is similar to the Swiss Federal Armory formula that D'Arcy referred to as one of his favorites.

C'mon guys. Someone has to have some insight on this question.

I have used the Laurel Mt. Forge brown for muzzleloader browning. It is great for that. I suppose if you had an extremely well-polished piece of steel, browned it with this stuff, and boiled the part after each coat it would give a rust blue. But I have not tried to turn any surface browned this way to a blue by boiling. I will only vouch for it as a true browning solution for muzzleloaders.

belaw, Some solutions on the market actually DO result in a surface built up coating. Gun Goddess is one of these. A blued sample for D'Arcy was not available at the time of his tests. My experience with it was after application. Canjar trigger parts that would no longer assemble into the unit housing. They were .003" thicker than when they left here. Surprise all around. Altitude- which above 3000 feet means less available oxygen for the reaction, and humidity at the point and time of application have a lot to do with the results. The applicator told me that he had humidity problems and got hard to remove scabbing if he didn't catch the parts in time, over several years of using this brand. I suggested he cut it. You might like the method of reducing the strength I advised him to try on sample junk parts.

Get a "mickey bottle"- 2 shots- of Vodka. Use that to cut the solution about 40% for an initial trial run. Adding this mix of ethyl alcohol and water is the simplest way and the exact ammount for the cut back is determined by your local conditions. I'm told that you might over time have several applicator containers of the cut mixes for various changes in local conditions in various cut strengths. One reportee said that it was better to get one of the more expensive brands because the balance in the Mickey was handy for alleviating the tenseness of the moment. Applied internally.

I have used Laurel Mt. Forge, Mark Lee's and a host of others. Laurel Mt. is very good but very hot. I don't like the detergent added. The method must be stepped up and carefully watched for the first "bloom" of rusting. It will pit all too easily. Can't be left all day or all night. I simply can't wait four or more hours to cycle a batch and love the hot stuff. I have cut it with water.

Mark Lee's stuff is an express blue, not a slow rust blue formula, although it will work for that, not very well in my opinion. I asked Mark, many years ago, about the difference between his hot, slow and browning solutions. Guess what, none. (I saw Mark last summer at the Minn. Art show opening, First time in decades!)

Pilkington advocate a fume method, I've heard of more than one rusted bore because some dolt didn't varnish and plug it. I've never heard any professional mention using it. Any browning solution will turn red rust to black with boiling.

All good multi-coat rust blueing will build up the surface. this is why the safety function, and any like parts, must be checked after reassembly. Try rusting the bottom of a sight and see if it will even start back in a dovetail? Nothing new here. Tom, I've had rust blued surfaces build up at 600' in Oregon and 4500' here.

A little example of what NOT to do.......
When I first wanted to try rust bluing I had decided to try and mix up some of the formula's in the Dunlap book. I bought bulk acids from a chemical supply house. I had a problem finding pure iron nails listed in the instructions but the chemical supply house had powdered pure iron so I bought it.
The instructions said to mix the acids, disolve the nails and then dilute it. I mixed the acids and then slowly started to add the iron powder.......
The large orange cloud that fumed up made me glad of several things, I was outdoors with acid gloves, safety goggles, a repirator and was near running water.
Next time the plan is to add the water first and then dissolve the iron powder.
The results with my solution were dissappointing even though I tried 12 passes like Mr. Echols has previously said it takes 16 or more. Next time I plan to add ferric cloride to see if it helps. Until then I'll keep using the Mark Lee Express blue.
If any of you aspiring bluers come by Oklahoma City look me up, come by and mix you a batch. Bring your own safety equipment. I have enough Nitric Acid, Hydrocloric Acid and Iron Powder to supply all of us on this forum for the next 30years - 2 gallons go a long way. .......DJ

My main question about rust bluing is how does one protect the bore and chamber from rusting? I've heard varnish, laquer, and bore plugs. I've also heard that bore/chamber plugs can blow out during the boiling process. Please feel free to enlighten me.

Craig:

I've only done a few rifles, so I should probably wait for some of the more experienced guys to post, but I've used thinned varnish to protect the bore, chamber and any other areas I want to keep bright with good results. Be sure that everything is totally degreased before you apply the varnish.

I use Pennzoil Super Clean (I think that's the name) for degreasing, which not only is an aggressive degreaser but also a very good varnish remover- after bluing I give everything a good soaking in it, which totally dissolves all of the varnish to the point where it simply wipes away. Super Clean is very caustic, so it probably also has the effect of neutralizing any remaining acid (just a hunch).

That reminds me one thing I learned the hard way- you'll want to degrease again after applying the varnish, but don't use Super Clean! Since you're only dealing with finger print and other surface oils from handling at this pointyou don't have to use as strong of a degreaser.

I've never tried plugs, mainly because I heard the same warnings you did, that they will blow-out.

craigster, SDH suggested painting the bores and I have done with great success. I used black lacquer and then lacquer thinner to remove it when done. It is a lot less effort than cleaning the bore if you leave it naked.

Here's my recipe:

For 1L:

Ferric Chloride 66 gm
Chrome alum 18 gm
ETOH 20 ml
Nitric Acid 15 ml
Dawn Dish Detergent 50 ml
H2O 915 ml

Dissolve Chrome alum in ETOH, add water, ferric chloride, detergent and finally nitric acid.

It works great and if you have access to a chemistry lab is free! Don't know what the ingredients will cost on the outside but probably not too much.

I degrease and wash parts in boiling hot water with dish detergent prior to blueing. The detergent in the solution keeps oil at bay and reduces anality required for a good job.

Before applying the solution by dabbing with a cotton ball I heat the parts with a propane torch probably between 200 -300 F - until the solution dries quickly but not immediately. I let rust overnight, then immerse in boiling water with dish detergent added and steep for ~ 30 min. Parts are removed, allowed to cool, and surface rust removed with a fine scotch brite pad or fine steel wool. Barrels should have a few patches run through. The process is then repeated 2 - 3 more times, then oiled and allow to cure for a day or so. Three to four cycles usually produce a beautiful deep matte black finish that is reasonably durable.

I've done four Mausers with this recipe so far and am very happy with it.

What is ETOH for those of us too lazy to think about it much?

Mark,



Sorry for the lingo: ETOH = ethanol, plain old grain alcohol. This is available cheap at hardware stores and paint shops as denatured alcohol (denatured means nasty extras added to make drinking it unpleasant - bummer).



I use chrome alum rather than copper sulfate only because I had it on hand. I believe that these ingredients are mordants there to help the color form and stay. Copper sulfate is more commonly used for blueing solutions, but I can recommend from experience that chrome alum works too - and it imparts a subtle but nice purple cast.

Many thanks to you and belaw.

Craig

Doble

Thanks for your experience.

Do you know the molar concentration of the Nitic acid (or some other measurement of the "potency")? I have trouble with most of the "old" formulas because they assumed standard concentrations. Unfortunately these chemicals are used so infrequently as isolated comsumer products in todays world that there are no longer any "standards" for this. If the bottle was from a chemical supply house it should be listed.

Thanks

Roger

Roger,

The concentrated nitric acid I use is 70%. This works-out to a final concentration in the bluing solution of ~1%.

Doble Troble, Tried to reach you using the private message feature ( you don't list an E-mail address) Had a technical question for you. Mine is listed. Would appreciate a way to communicate with you and not clutter up a forum site.