Even after being out of the accessory end of the business for quite some time, I get regular inquiries if I'd please make more Enfield bottom metal.

Can't do it...Machining Center sold...However, I'm testing the waters to see if maybe Mike McKay can be talked into making some..He's concerned about demand.

Rightly so! This would be the frame only based loosely on the original concept You're on your own for magazine boxes...way too many configuration possibilities.

With the above in mind, what say ye?

Duane,

If McKay wants to make it, good! But as we discussed I'd be interested in making these.

I know a few guys are interested from when I ran a batch of the 1917 LaPour bolt shrouds. But I would say quantities would be pretty limited. I would like one for a 375 H&H and one for a 416 Rigby. I'll look and see what I had for a list, but off the top of my head, I had 4 or 5 guys who gave me their names for bottom metal.

Keeping it frames only, I think is the way to go. That is what I had in mind doing, and I have a shop north of me that can laser and bend boxes, but again, short of any quantity, that is a pretty high price.

Sorry...I must have missed that,by all means I'd like to see someone make them as long as you can make a buck. I don't think the average person has any idea what goes into bottom metal


I made the frame to accommodate up to 505,,,with the advice to t rim back the front tang as needed or wanted.

Of course, demand goes up as soon as it's not ready available "off the shelf"

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
I don't think the average person has any idea what goes into bottom metal

I don't think the majority of gunsmiths have any idea what goes into making bottom metal from scratch.

Back a couple of decades ago when I had the Tracing mill, ( Pre CNC that I have now )

I would start with a 11 pound block of steel and about 9 hours later finish up with 12 oz's of steel in the shape of a finished trigger guard unit.

A whole lot of steel chips on the floor to get to the final product, then there is the fine hand file/fitting of the hinge, and latch areas

J Wisner

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Sorry...I must have missed that,by all means I'd like to see someone make them as long as you can make a buck. I don't think the average person has any idea what goes into bottom metal


I made the frame to accommodate up to 505,,,with the advice to t rim back the front tang as needed or wanted.

Of course, demand goes up as soon as it's not ready available "off the shelf"

No problem at all. You don't have any kind of sample for what you made previous do you? I'd just like to save as much time as I can.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
I don't think the majority of gunsmiths have any idea what goes into making bottom metal from scratch.

Thats the truth...

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Sorry...I must have missed that,by all means I'd like to see someone make them as long as you can make a buck. I don't think the average person has any idea what goes into bottom metal


I made the frame to accommodate up to 505,,,with the advice to t rim back the front tang as needed or wanted.

Of course, demand goes up as soon as it's not ready available "off the shelf"

No problem at all. You don't have any kind of sample for what you made previous do you? I'd just like to save as much time as I can.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
I don't think the majority of gunsmiths have any idea what goes into making bottom metal from scratch.

Thats the truth...

If you get permission from Jim W, I have one of his 505s I can loan you.
Don

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
I don't think the average person has any idea what goes into bottom metal

I don't think the majority of gunsmiths have any idea what goes into making bottom metal from scratch.

Couple of years ago, I paid (happily) almost 1000$ for a Blackburn bottom metal, we have to keep the custom parts makers in business. Wish that 1000 bucks could’ve gone to a gunsmith…

quote:

Originally posted by Fal Grunt:

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Sorry...I must have missed that,by all means I'd like to see someone make them as long as you can make a buck. I don't think the average person has any idea what goes into bottom metal


I made the frame to accommodate up to 505,,,with the advice to t rim back the front tang as needed or wanted.

Of course, demand goes up as soon as it's not ready available "off the shelf"

No problem at all. You don't have any kind of sample for what you made previous do you? I'd just like to save as much time as I can.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
I don't think the majority of gunsmiths have any idea what goes into making bottom metal from scratch.

Thats the truth...

Wish I did, sorry

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Wish I did, sorry

Come on Duane. You've produced lots of these.

Hopefully not using a tracer mill. They're a ball and chain. Nothing happens without human input 100% of the time. My back hurts just thinking how much time JWisner spent bent over a tracer.

Interlude>

I have 4 knives made by Ralph Dewy Harris. He used a Deckel to make beautiful interframe folders.

I have two duplicators, and I can assure you no part of any bottom metal will be produced on them! I greatly enjoy them and keep them around like the fine pieces of art that they are. Wizardry really. Great for the unique one off job. I keep telling myself I’m going to sell the little Gorton, but just can’t bring myself to do it. Maybe one of these days.

A member contacted me that they have a Wiebe bottom metal I can take a look at. I’ve got 404J and 416R I can use to figure the relative mag box size, but no 505’s. Would someone be willing to make me up and sell me 3-5 505 dummies?

Duane, James, anyone else that would weigh in; What would be your opinion on eliminating the top 2 degree taper along the length of the trigger guard and make it a parallel surface to the action? This makes manufacturing the trigger guard and magazine box much easier. I'd leave the bottom taper to help with the stock lines. This makes for a bit bulkier trigger guard, but I wouldn't think the few ounces extra will mean much on a big bore.

Thoughts?

The vast majority of folks will want a standard 1917 compatible unit, what are your opinions on making some with straight screws for eliminating/modifying the rear tang of the 1917?

I'd welcome anyone's interest and opinions. I know I will never make everyone happy, but I do want to sell the most units I can!

I did the 2 degree taper around the perimeter.I got the "offset"..I think you are describing it as a taper??

Put the front part o the frame in a vise and use a rubber mallet to smack an offset of about 3/16"

Tried a couple of more scientific methods, but spring back was not consistent.

I made two models..standard and magnum. Standard frame was large enough to cover the short mags,,,Magnum was big enough to cover 505,,meant a shorter front tang appearance, but could be modified by owner to fit 404, 416, 375's etc


My feeling is that making a frame for every conceivable cartridge is an exercise in futility

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
I did the 2 degree taper around the perimeter.I got the "offset"..I think you are describing it as a taper??

Put the front part o the frame in a vise and use a rubber mallet to smack an offset of about 3/16"

Tried a couple of more scientific methods, but spring back was not consistent.

I made two models..standard and magnum. Standard frame was large enough to cover the short mags,,,Magnum was big enough to cover 505,,meant a shorter front tang appearance, but could be modified by owner to fit 404, 416, 375's etc


My feeling is that making a frame for every conceivable cartridge is an exercise in futility

I meant machining the bottom metal horizontally instead of at the 2 degrees it should be. This means that the radii would be off on the front and back of the magazine box.

The originals have a 4 1/2 degree taper around the outside edge, if you think a 2 degree is better, then I will use that. Did you run that the full depth or did you leave a small flat area at the bottom?

Back to the radii, if I don't machine the bottom metal at 2 degrees, using a 2 degree taper around the outside edge, that would make the rear of the magazine box taper zero, and the front of the magazine box four degrees. Not the end of the world on either account, but I don't want to introduce any unforeseen issues for the stock makers.

Thanks WoodHunter! I don't suspect I will have these available in the short term, but I would like to have them running at the end of this year, early next year. We will see how they fit into my current backlog!

Not sure I follow. You're talking about the bottom stock line being 2 deg???

I've never built one that flat. Especially with short forends.

show us a napkin "print"

something like this? similar to how Rem does it. bottom line on this is 3.5 degrees
MiniH by JAMES ANDERSON, on Flickr

The inletting draft is cut using a 2 degree cutter while the top of the rails is at 0 deg (90 to cuter). This makes the size of the mag box easy to maintain cuze it's the same dim front and back. Also makes it easy to inlet stock on the CNC just rotated 180. The inletting around the guard has to be cut in XYX and not just flat like the rails.

Also I machine the draft on the guard where it's fixtured at 3.5 deg with XYZ programming so the heel of the guard doesn't have a 1.5 degree interference when inletting.

The original 1917's used a 2 degree angle for the front tang and magazine, with the trigger guard being at 6 degrees from the bottom of the action. As far as I can tell the subsequent 1930's used the same 2 degree bottom angle but removed the step and removed the 4 degree drop from the trigger guard end.

I think you and I are saying the same thing regarding the draft. If I cut the above trigger guard "flat" then the rear tang radius has 0 taper and the front would actually have 4. Likewise inletting the magazine box you would have zero in the back and 4 in the front.

So the outside taper has to be cut when in the 2 degree position.

You raise a good point, with shorter fore ends being the style would an increased angle be better?

And yes, your model shows what I was originally thinking. Make the top part through the magazine box parallel to the bottom of the magazine.

I'm probably the least qualified on the Enfield subject as I could not stand the black diamond slope of the action tang and hacked it off with a cutoff wheel through the sear window and added a more gentle tapered tang & extended tang that belongs on a classy custom rifle. The trigger guard on my project needed to be in the "correct" position for a stock design I could stomach putting my name on. The factory Enfield dimensions wouldn't allow that. Although the picture looks like it has a drop magazine, it's just an illusion with the shaping of the stock around the fore and aft of the magazine. The floormetal is at 3 degrees and the forend forward of the mag is 5 degrees. I would prefer this line being straight or swamped and tangent to the grip curve. But that's just me being overly picky. The tang I welded on does NOT have an angled guard screw hole so any dimensions I provide are not suitable for a factory Enfield. I'm sure I've completely confused the subject.

Here's a few pics of the BIG girl.

Loved that rifle when I first saw it,and still do!

A few Burgess/Echols Enfield 416s:

Burgess 3UE barreled action. Holds 4 down with at least .150 of spring compression.







Another Burgess Enfield 3UE chambered for 416 Remington, hold 5 down in this magazine, the forward underbelly taper geometry is slightly shallower compared to the other 416 Rigby





A well-used Burgess 3UE in 416 Rigby

What is 3UE? Sorry not familiar with the term.

Ironic that Baxter posted the Burgess Enfield's. As I read this thread earlier this afternoon I thought to myself that it would be interesting to inspect and compare Burgess' bottom metal to other pieces that have been offered for the Enfield over the years.

The 3UE designation was what Tom called his Enfield conversion. 3 for 3rd Gen, U for Ultimate and E for, well you get it.

Burgess made these Enfield as well as his Magnum Mauser assemblies from two pieces soldering the magazine box and bow together as part of the assembly procedure. The interior of the mag box were always machined cartridge specific as was the follower, the feed well and the rails.

He preferred to use chrome moly steel when possible to prevent the front of the magazine wall from being beat up in recoil.

These assemblies were very well made and the limited number of 3UE's I've stocked functioned flawlessly. The cosmetic treatment of his highly modified rear tang allowed you to make a pleasing and comfortable grip.

Others have done very much same such as Mr Wisner and Mr Anderson to name a few demonstrating beautifully clean functional work. An Enfield done in this manner is an awful lot of work but the final results can be very satisfying.

Well..... OK...We know pretty rifles can be made on the Enield platform. my quest was to see the interest in both mfg and potential buyers.

Potential buyer response has been underwhelming.

Outstanding
Pretty sure Burgess eliminated the stupid angled rear guard screw hole with his tang mods. When I did this I was limited to the guard screw spacing on Duane's floormetal. In CAD I located the rear screw hole from the bottom up.

There's a huge variety of how Enfields have been customized. Would make it hard to produce one size fits all custom floormetal. Almost have to match it to a stock pattern & aftermarket trigger assembly.

Maybe a 3 piece weld it on your own kit would make parts work for most. Big problem being as the angle of the floormetal increases the distance between front and rear guard screws gets smaller. Stocking from a blank using inletting guide screws, you could inlet the front rails that has an extended rear where it welds to the guard bow. Then inlet the rear Guard with that stupid angled screw without the rails in place and then shorten the rear of the rails until they both fit the inlet at the same time and weld them together. The conterbore angle through the floormetal needs to be correct after stocking otherwise accuracy problems can arise.

Here is my Gen 2 conversion to the Enfield receiver.
A new rear tang section, but still uses the existing rear guard screw, still some more filing/shaping is needed to get a better stock line for the top of the grip

About 30 years ago I started making these rail type guard units for the Enfield. They were first made up to fit the 340 Weatherby size cases, using a stamped formed sheet metal box that was .050" thick.

This is not a normal 1909 size guard bow, its my Magnum bow which is length wise between the 1909, and the Big Obendorf bow. I designed this magnum bow to better work with drop boxes and like this Enfield move the bow rearward to help the grip line, side profile.

Perhaps the best option is like Burgess did, he made the rear screw 90 degrees to the bore, and then positioned his bow for a much better grip shape.

This rifle is a 375 H&H with this rail guard unit, and a new machined box insert. Yes machined box insert, from 1018 steel. As the rail is set up for the wider in the front shoulder 340 WBY, I then have to narrow the inside down for the more tapered 375 H&H, that also gives me a thicker front box wall to take the recoil of any solids that may get shot in the rifle. It holds 4 rounds with ease, if a 5th is needed. Then a pocket floor plate would be used to clear the follower and spring. or simply design a drop box unit up, as you only need another .080" - .090" drop in the rear of the box to get 5 of the 375 in.

Enjoy
J Wisner

Well here's something else to ponder: If you hook up CZ 550 bottom metal to an Enfield..it's close to a perfect match. Even the magazine is so close it's scary

Never realised they had an angled rear guard screw…that complicates things no end.

No..I said "close" Haven't actually tried it , but wouldn't be surprise if one could end mill the tap size for a 7mm thread and "straighten out" that rear hole Or..silver solder in a blind plug and then drill and tap perpendicular

Found the 6 mm CZ guard screw will take a pretty good hold in the Enfield, but I wouldn't trust longevity

Just suggesting possible easy way to come up with half way decent bottom metal for an Enfield

This is all very elegant, but I found that you can use the stock bottom metal either straight or in the original drop box shape; then for a mag box, I had a bunch made up from stainless steel that are 3.75" long; sized at the rear for a standard magnum cartridge; the dimension at the front ie the taper depends on the specific ctg so I left the front split. You take off some metal before welding that up for the more tapered rounds, and you leave it wide for the straighter rounds. Works AOK. I don't sell these separately, they come with a P14 action/barrel kit that I offer in various groove dias with a proper 1.35" shanked barrel.

As an aside, I made a 404 Jeff for myself using a 98 action with P14 bottom metal as above, to give myself 4 down. I have a special stock pattern that works for that combination.

"I don't think the majority of gunsmiths have any idea what goes into making bottom metal from scratch."

gunmaker[/quote]

It appears from your posts on Flickr that you purchased or are leasing a new milling machine and are making most of the metal parts for your custom rifles.

With so many better actions available these days, why would anyone build a custom rifle on an Enfield 1917 action?

I can promise you I wouldn't, nor would anyone I know.

Put another way (and to answer the original question): I can't believe there would be any kind of real market out there for Enfield 1917 bottom metal.

They are really just curiosities and collector's items these days.

WEll..not everybody want's a "custom" post 64 M-70.

You might make the same case for 98 conversions...but that wouldn't be accurate either

Custom is all about the refined, the one of a kind, the same pleasure that comes from custom boots to custom built mansions.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
I'm probably the least qualified on the Enfield subject as I could not stand the black diamond slope of the action tang and hacked it off with a cutoff wheel through the sear window and added a more gentle tapered tang & extended tang that belongs on a classy custom rifle. The trigger guard on my project needed to be in the "correct" position for a stock design I could stomach putting my name on. The factory Enfield dimensions wouldn't allow that. Although the picture looks like it has a drop magazine, it's just an illusion with the shaping of the stock around the fore and aft of the magazine. The floormetal is at 3 degrees and the forend forward of the mag is 5 degrees. I would prefer this line being straight or swamped and tangent to the grip curve. But that's just me being overly picky. The tang I welded on does NOT have an angled guard screw hole so any dimensions I provide are not suitable for a factory Enfield. I'm sure I've completely confused the subject.

Here's a few pics of the BIG girl.

James, that looks like my Rigby!

Not done too many Enfields, but preiously, I did as Butch says, just cut off the tang and start all over.

However,. Jim Wisner has some pretty nifty ideas and I used them on the 500 A Square I posted a bit ago on "Custom Rifles"

Armed with Jim''s ideas, will not go thru the cut off and rebuild cycle again...really no need to do that..

The bolt handle and safety? Well that's a different story.

Just a point of info. Recently did the Traister cock on opening conversion. Pleasently surprised how well it came out .

Have another Enfield on the books, going to install Fal Grunt's excellent Mexican cocking knob on the cocking piece or firing pin nut, (whichever you want to call it)