Am I looking at an alteration if I find a Brno 21H with a butterknife bolt handle that is dished in, with a corresponding inlet in the stock for low scope mounting?

Yes, it has been altered.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Yes, it has been altered.

Is it worthless? The stock has been refinished in Tung oil, and a London Guns recoil pad has been added.

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Yes, it has been altered.

Is it worthless? The stock has been refinished in Tung oil, and a London Guns recoil pad has been added.

Yes, I am afraid the rifle is indeed totally worthless.

Please send me the sellers' address via PM so that I keep this nasty rifle out of the hands of unsuspecting buyers

Seriously, any alteration of course decreases the collector value, but I consider that this rifle is primarily in such demand because it is a great action for building a wonderful working rifle.

Congrats on finding this rifle! I wish I could advise about how much the value has been reduced.

jpb

HP,

You dirty dog! I see you found the 21H I have been eyeballing.

Chet

There are a lot of variables in determining the value of a Brno. In general terms, altered ones usually trades hands for $500-$1K, and unmolested examples usually are in the $1K-2K range.

Sometimes you can find a parts gun for under $500, but most times these have been pretty well butchered.

HPShooter,
I don't know what you mean by dished in but my 21 bolt will allow low scope mounting with no alteration. The butterknife handle is standard.

Does the bolt look like this one?



Note that this bolt is really not "inletted" into the stock. There is only a small notch on the stock. Sorry for the poor picture but it's the only handy one that I have.

The roots on these bolts are really not all that low and in particular this one and that's what effects scope clearance.

Savage, the top of your bolt handle appears to me to have been "relieved" slightly to clear a scope bell. Looks like it was well done.

Your not talking about this one are you?



This one is sold as an altered bolt and it seems as if the stock has been cut. Such an alteration would indeed "lower" the bolt.

fla30-06,

Mine may have been altered but its a rough job. It's true that even as it is it barely clears a 1.375" eyepiece using the factory mounts.

The problem with mine is that the root is so high before it turns and this is a 1950 model. Another one that I own is a 1948 yet the root of the bolt, where it counts, is much lower and it does not look altered at all. This rifle is at the smiths for scope mounting so I cannot take pictures of it right now.

There is a 21h for sale here that has the butter knife bolt pinned on! That one may have been cut and reattached.

It would pretty easy to return them back to original...That one bolt handle does not appear to have been cut IMO, just trimmed a bit and could be tigged back up, and the stock just had a recoil pad added, not cut if I'm not mistaken..

I have some original bolt handles that I have cut off Brno 21s and 22s....

I will give $500 for any Brno 21 or 22 action thats clean and certainly for any rifle I will pay up to $800 or more, at my descreation. I really am partial to them..

Savage, all unaltered 21/22 bolt handles I've seen protude a long way out from the bolt body and the stocks are not relieved, maybe just a slight notch near the top, one of the reasons these rifles require high scope rings. Also, the ridge down the middle of the spoon should go all the way to the bolt, no flats. Many of these guns have had the tops of the bolt handles ground down, and of course the round top versions are frequently drilled and tapped.

That picture says a thousand words fla3006. It's the first one that I have seen or maybe looked close at that shows a bolt like that.

In any case I have what I have and they are not bad at all considering everything but orginal they are not.

I appreciate the value of an orginal piece but for my purposes these rifles are good.

Thanks again.

Here is an unaltered one on Gunbroker now. No wonder so many people say "I never saw that" when indeed they did not know what they were looking for.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
Your not talking about this one are you?



This one is sold as an altered bolt and it seems as if the stock has been cut. Such an alteration would indeed "lower" the bolt.

That is precisely what I am talking about. I'm not sure I want that rifle since I have a rifle in another caliber very close to it.

That handle looks like it's been heated and bent, or replaced with something from Brownell's.

quote:

Originally posted by Chet:
HP,

You dirty dog! I see you found the 21H I have been eyeballing.

Chet

The 8x60 Brno is very nice, not sure why Kurt is selling that. The other rifle with the altered bolt knob looks to have been repolished and reblued. There was an unfired 7x57 full stock double square bridge 22-F on AuctionArms the other day, sold for the "buy it now price" of $1850, as good as they get.

Too many rifles, not enough time to shoot. I parting with some of my redundant chamberings. Don't worry, I'll still have this pre-war Brno A in 8x60S to fall back on. It's a large ring, but the barrel is only 21.5 inches and it is sweet to shoot.

Forrest, mine does not look like yours. The top of the handle does not have that long curve in it. It comes off more like the one that Savage 99 posted that is on Gunbroker. Although that one is difficult to see what the shape is like. I will try to post a pic when I get some time.

Two unaltered Brno 8x60S bolt handles, made 16 years apart.

Left side is from a 1938 model A. Original 3-position wing safety has been replaced with an FN, and has been rust blued.

Ride side is from a 1954 model 21H. Has the standard small ring shroud and deep bluing.





Also, neither stock has any wood removed for the bolt handle, as seen in this pic of the 1938. The handles go completely over the wood.

quote:

Originally posted by KurtC:
Also, neither stock has any wood removed for the bolt handle, as seen in this pic of the 1938. The handles go completely over the wood.

It's the high "root" of the bolt that lets it clear the stocks and this is what makes very high scope mounting necessary. On some only scopes with compact oculars will clear.

The 7x57 being sold is mine (with the red recoil pad). The original bolt handle was removed and a new one from Brownells welded on. I still have the original.

David