I have been collection Oberndorf mauser actions for years. Some were in great condition and others were bad looking. If the metal smith is going to surface grind, True the bridges, remove the charger hump stone and generally make the action into a custom rifle action, h ow bad can the surface pitting above the stock line be? I have two 1933 Argentine Police actions. They have a lot of fine pitting above the stock line and some pitting below. If everything is going to be surface ground and trued and metal removed and finally the entire action reheat treated, is there any reason not to use them.

If you are going to remove all of the markings anyway, does it really matter the pedigree of the action in the first place?

I personally hate to see all that erasure of heritge. But ..that was the vogue years ago..

If they are actions only, the collector value is long gone. I say go ahead.

I totally agree with you, the pedigree of the action does matter! Every metal smith I have used in the last 10 years wants to true the circumference of the front and rear receiver rings for custom bases. Doing that removes the front ring markings as well as the serial number the BUGN marks and on some Mauser's the car touche on the rear ring. If the action is frosted with light surface pitting then the action can be used and the marks taken off and that improves the look of the action for the project.

You have to think of it in terms of economics.
.005" when grinding is a mile. So anything over .010" on the diameter to clean up marks, pits, etc. is going to take some time. especially on something you can't spin in a fixture 360'.

IMO the pedigree is paramount. To remove the BUG proofs or the Oberndorf markings is just plain stupid, all the real value and braggin' rights of the action just went right down the toilet. My advice would be to change smiths, change to one that uses stones rather than a surface- or toolpost-grinder. If the pits are awkwardly placed or too deep, I would either have them TIGed or sell the action.

If you're gonna remove the markings then you might as well use a Santa Barbara and spend the extra money on engraving. Or white-line spacers...
Regards, Joe

Let me clarify by marks I mean say dent dings scratch not proof marks or makers marks.

My above opinion is solely a tool makers point of view from how much steel needs to be removed.
But I will say I love to see the old tool makers stamp in parts. I don't know where I'd draw the line at but on some things I have a hard time grinding off a proof mark on my own action. For a customer yeah maybe stones would be a good route to go but if the pits are too deep the either leave it the way it is or tig weld it up with a due amount of caution.

I know I'm back peddling here but Joe brings up some good points and that got me to thinking

Depending on the pitting and what you want to accomplish with the action, you may consider having the pits filled. Most engravers should be able to fill the pits, which would in my opinion be easier... possibly better(?) than having them welded.

For military collectors I understand wanting the cartouche and all that. On custom rifle, I can see wanting the proofs and makers left. The cartouche on a custom...not to my thinking. I don't think I've ever seen a cartouche on a commercial Mauser or a rifle out of the British houses with a miltary stamping. I don't think it's befitting a high grade sporting rifle.

Just one man's opinion though.

quote:

Originally posted by Scrollcutter:
For military collectors I understand wanting the cartouche and all that. On custom rifle, I can see wanting the proofs and makers left. The cartouche on a custom...not to my thinking. I don't think I've ever seen a cartouche on a commercial Mauser or a rifle out of the British houses with a miltary stamping. I don't think it's befitting a high grade sporting rifle.

Just one man's opinion though.

I was going to say the same thing, but thought it better to leave to someone more accredited. If you are building a nice hunting rifle and enjoy the markings, then absolutely leave them. However if you are building a true, polished inside and out, piece of art, then you may consider removing most if not all of the markings (short of maybe the side markings on an obendorf?)

quote:

The cartouche on a custom...not to my thinking. I don't think I've ever seen a cartouche on a commercial Mauser or a rifle out of the British houses with a miltary stamping.

Holland's usual custom was to leave any markings on the left side of the action (the side with the thumb cut-out) but to stipple out anything on the front receiver ring.

I guess im with ScrollCutter on this,....If im getting a modern featured classic rifle from a top end smith,I care not for orig. stampings. A totally externally reground-trued action takes priority.
Lets say for eg; you had DArcy or Heilmann build you an M98 with the miltary Oberndorf side markings ground off, would anyone seriously doubt or question the integrity of the build?.
http://www.hallowellco.com/heilmann%20358.htm

Yes.
Regards, Joe

Ok JD,
be kind enough to tell us what concerns you have about the unmarked M98 receiver Heilmann used for the .358mag build.
..you dont trust that he chose a fine action for the build?
..If he told you it was originally an Oberndorf, you wouldnt believe him?

A client walks into the smith's shop with a surface-ground and thus unidentifiable action, and $5,000 cash to get the smith started on the project. He tells the smith it's an Oberndorf with the markings ground off.

What's gonna happen then?

And, what's gonna happen down the road a a few years later when the rifle must be sold and the (prospective, at this point) purchaser asks, "How can I know what this was, really?" Or, the rifle is in the rack at the hunting camp and another hunter asks about its history?

And when the story is told, the viewer says to himself, "Yeah, r-i-i-i-i-g-h-t!" and goes down to look at the next rifle. You know, the one with the Oberndorf logo still on the left rail?

Sounds more like a butchery to me, does the smith need a MACHINE to keep his lines straight?

Like I said, just plain stupid IMO, no logical reason for it. Yeah sure, grind the ring crest, that's fine and even preferable, but if you lose the BUG proofs and the Oberndorf rail markings then you might as well have started with a WW2 military or Santa Barbara action.
Regards, Joe

There certainly are other ways to provide information for future generations. The smith can include the information on an order form or letter, and the action can be stamped or engraved on the underside with the pertinent information.

Nevertheless, if you have the money to commission a high dollar custom rifle using an action that has the letters MAUSER across the front ring, you probably have the money to hire your gunmaker to install a front scope mount that sits on the barrel instead of the front ring, so why not do it.

Depends on what you're building too.

I damn sure would not use a Orberndorf for a modern style build. Those actions with markings intact should be reserved for a classic style or Dangerous game rifle build. I sure as hell would not hand D'Archy an Orberndorf action and say "build me your Legend" I'd give him Remy or a Sako for that.
In my world Plastic stocks have no place on a classic action. same goes for laminates and anything not taken from the tree in once solid chunk. and preferably a piece of XXX english walnut.
You may as well build a tactical rifle with a quarter rib at that point.

doesn't fit the style.

There in lies the rub. You see two rifles at a gun show. Both are marked $65000.00, on the tag is a description of the accouterments of each rifle. One rifle clearly has the Orberndorf markings on the action and the makers name stamped in a strategic yet inconspicuous spot on the stock, the other has no such markings but is done up as well as the first. Which do you feel better spending that money on. One with a definite proviso or one without?

I would never build or buy an $65k bolt rifle based on an old metalurgy/military reciever.
If I came across an Echols ,Miller or Heilmann creation that I wanted to purchase, Id first want to talk to the smith about the rig in general.
If he tells me that the project began with an orig. Oberndorf, Brazilian 08 or Argie 09 that he ground the markings off in the process,
his word is %100 good enough for me. ...If he told you the rig had a particular brand of barrel, would you doubt him?

Scrollcutter., we have disagreed before on this issue. My rifle My idea! The basic issue is the buyer is king in this deal. To me a mauser action, if a true 98 Mauser, is king. When you remove all of the markings that prove its pedigree, then of course you are taking away all of the identification marks that prove its worth in making into a true custom.Would you want someone else taking credit for your good work? I don't think so! None the less, My idea in converting to a custom rifle is to start with premium hardware, use the best crafstmen you can afford to use to produce the best rifle you can afford to make.

Interesting discussion. I think the answer lies in your individual perception and value of both history (and it's subsequent value) as well as the same perception of future value. I build (or more accurately, have built) rifles for myself and that is the only person that I care about when I do so. If I don't want the markings or crests, they go away. I guess it is hard to explain more than that. I don't expect anyone else to value any rifle I had built more than I do. If my wife sells them when I am gone, then she will get what she gets for them. I have only one rifle that I care about how someone else feels about and that is the one my daughter likes. It is built from a FR8 mauser and she loves it. The rest, well, I don't expect to get anything close to what I paid for them. They are an amusement, a tool, a fun thing to hunt and shoot with...nothing more. Just because I spent money on them doesn't matter to me as long as *I* get my money's worth out of them. No one else matters in that equasion,

BTW, if you have to ask about the pits, they are probably bad enough to not make a high end rifle out of anyway.

Sorry for the rub, Len. I was under the impression that we were all voicing out own opinions.

Your right, of course. I'll do what I want to my rifles and you'll do the same. Never meant otherwise.

BTW, I wouldn't remove lettering either. If you will re-read my post I was referring to the cartouche.

Again, so we're clear. That's "my" opinion

No worries Rodger, we all have our own likes and preferences. one thing is for sure; life IS too short to hunt with an ugly rifle.