I am thinking that this may be a gunsmithing topic? I couldn't think of another forum that would be more appropriate.

I have an unlicensed Individual from California interested in buying one of my pre 64 Win 70's. I have a C&R. I don't know if I want to proceed with the transaction or not.

I know that I have to ship this to an FFL dealer, but what other BS is involved with this transaction on my end? Please facts only, no opinions.

First of all, California law controls only what happens in California. It does NOT control what happens from one state to another. That is federal jurisdiction. That being the case, you may wish to seek the advice of BATFE.

You ARE a federally licensed FFL holder (your C&R license), so it is legal for you to ship to another federally licensed individual in California IF it is not one of the firearms which is totally banned there. Whether he wishes to receive a firearm from you is up to him and HIS interpretation of the California laws which apply to him in his state.

If I were you, I'd require a signed statment from the receiving dealer that the shipment complies with the applicable California laws, together with a signed copy of his FFL. (I personally would only ship to a Type "01" FFL icensee, but that's because I don't trust the State of California to do anything straight-forwardly and above-board.)

And I would make it clear to the purchaser that if for some reason the deal went sour, it would be his cost and his responsibility to get the gun successfully shipped back to me in the same condition as I shipped it to him/her...and, in writing, to do everything required to hold you harmless from any resulting legal costs.

If he/she did not agree to those conditions, I would walk away from the deal and not ship at all.

If, on considering the info you receive and what your gut tells you, you feel insecure about the transaction, I would end it at that point. I doubt you are going to make enough money on the deal for it to be worth a lot of potential worries and hassles.

In the end, it is your decision and your interpretation. There are no etched in stone facts...all enforcement or lack thereof is potentially the result of some interpretation by some bureaucrat (and potentially a court) somewhere. If you are not comfortable with that, I would recommend not getting further involved. But that's just my view. YOUR view is the determinant one.

The problem is not with the individual. It is the PRK (People's Republic of Kommifornia).

I already told the potential buyer that if we proceed, he pays, and I ship to the dealer of his choice and that is the end of my responsibility as far as him ultimately receiving the gun.

The California DOJ sends forms to gun shops in PA all the time requiring compliance with their BS. Most just refuse to do business with California

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
First of all, California law controls only what happens in California. It does NOT control what happens from one state to another. That is federal jurisdiction. That being the case, you may wish to seek the advice of BATFE.

You ARE a federally licensed FFL holder (your C&R license), so it is legal for you to ship to another federally licensed individual in California IF it is not one of the firearms which is totally banned there. Whether he wishes to receive a firearm from you is up to him and HIS interpretation of the California laws which apply to him in his state.

If I were you, I'd require a signed statment from the receiving dealer that the shipment complies with the applicable California laws, together with a signed copy of his FFL. (I personally would only ship to a Type "01" FFL icensee, but that's because I don't trust the State of California to do anything straight-forwardly and above-board.)

And I would make it clear to the purchaser that if for some reason the deal went sour, it would be his cost and his responsibility to get the gun successfully shipped back to me in the same condition as I shipped it to him/her...and, in writing, to do everything required to hold you harmless from any resulting legal costs.

If he/she did not agree to those conditions, I would walk away from the deal and not ship at all.

If, on considering the info you receive and what your gut tells you, you feel insecure about the transaction, I would end it at that point. I doubt you are going to make enough money on the deal for it to be worth a lot of potential worries and hassles.

In the end, it is your decision and your interpretation. There are no etched in stone facts...all enforcement or lack thereof is potentially the result of some interpretation by some bureaucrat (and potentially a court) somewhere. If you are not comfortable with that, I would recommend not getting further involved. But that's just my view. YOUR view is the determinant one.

For one FFl holder to ship to another FFL holder in CA you MUST abide by the STATE law which says that you must first register with the DOJ and then get permission to ship to the receiving FFL. This takes all of 5 minutes including registration. The CA FFL will need to provide you with the DOJ assigned number so you can plug that into the DOJ website.

Now, you should read the DOJ writings to see if this also applies to C&R FFL's. If it's a private party sending no need to bother with the DOJ. The private party can just send to the receiving FFL.

Really not a big deal I'm not sure why so many sissies from outside of CA are so bothered by the extra 3 minutes of work? They're just screwing the gun owners of CA who already have it bad enough.

As with all things legal, you should go straight to the source and see for yourself.

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

Now, you should read the DOJ writings to see if this also applies to C&R FFL's. If it's a private party sending no need to bother with the DOJ. The private party can just send to the receiving FFL.

Really not a big deal I'm not sure why so many sissies from outside of CA are so bothered by the extra 3 minutes of work? They're just screwing the gun owners of CA who already have it bad enough.

As with all things legal, you should go straight to the source and see for yourself.

I believe C&Rs are "somewhat" exempt.

You are right about CA gun owners getting it from all directions. Especially form our in-state dealers.

Transferring a firearm to a California resident is no different then transferring a firearm to most other states.
The reason the California state DOJ want an out of state FFL hold to register with the state is to prove the license is good.

Deal between dealers are essentially unregulated in other states and there is little that can be done about fake FFL Other then calling the feds with a FFL number to get it checked and most dealers don't do that.

Being that I live in California and have no intention of moving it really chaps my hide when I see crap like this posted on the web. California is not any harder to deal with. They (the government) just restrict what can be shipped in. and there are a few other states that do the same thing. Ever try to ship to Jersey or Massachusetts Good luck....

It has always been the responsibility of the purchasing party to know their gun laws. But we all know that the re responsibility lies on the shipping FFL dealer.

So please remember California has a lot of crazy people living here but we try to keep them locked up in Sacramento

Well I don't feel sorry for you Californians, you elected the idiots.

Don't say it isn't harder to do business in California. You approved list and process to gain approval is a joke. Example: They tested a 6 inch model 686 so it is approved but a 4 inch or an 8 inch isn't. That is just a hypothetical example.

Your lead bans, smart guns, firing pin indent, approved lists etc give other liberals hope to spread the disease elsewhere. I will not be a party to it. My suggestion is move.

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
Most just refuse to do business with California

And so should you.

For one I didn't elect these jokers. Two say I did is like say you elected Obama.
What happened was a majority of dipstick voted for what they thought was a republican and turn out he's nothing but a Flip flopper like the rest trying to keep his job.
That's one reason there is such an up roar right now over who is going to be the next Governor.

The handgun safety list is a bit of a joke but what I was referring to was the ability of an FFL dealer to do business in this state. And that is not hard at all to do.

quote:

Your lead bans, smart guns, firing pin indent, approved lists etc give other liberals hope to spread the disease elsewhere. I will not be a party to it. My suggestion is move.

And we have no lead ban it's just limited on where it can be used. Smart Guns don't exist.

And if I did move where would it be to???

Some place I have to shovel snow off my drive way every morning to get to work?? Deal with floods, tornados, hurricanes?

Tell me just where would i be "better off"?

I have family here I have roots here and I ain't leaving

I am sorry. I did not mean to make it sound as a personal attack.

I meant you as in the people of California elected the idiots in Sacremento. If there is no hope to change them then move. Again the move wasn't directed at you specifically, but at Californians at odds with the legislature.

Now I do have to take a quick shot. Earthquakes. I will take a snow shovel over them any day.

Limited use is a ban in my book. The old camels nose situation.

Here is the real kicker. The DOJ registration list is a typical looks good to the masses but does nothing except inconvenience lawful gun owners/dealers. To be specific it is supposed to be an assurance of valid FFL holders. Well 01 FFL's can be verified very easy through BATFE EZ Check. In state 03 FFL (C&R's) are exempt from the process. 03 FFL's can not be verified through BATFE EZ Check.

A lot of stuff irks me about California. The two biggies are the media's claim of California being the trend setter for national policy.

The second is my son likes it out there and probably will end up staying there. I have family heirlooms not on the approved list. I sold off all of my AR's as they won't have a home there, but the old S&W's handed down to me are the one's that really bother me.

I'll only ask does this qualify as a C&R eligible transfer ?. pre 64 Win 70's. As I don't believe

that this Rifle qualifies with only a C&R license . I looked through ALL Rifles of eligibility on my C&R

list and it's not even close . I was under the assumption to engage in sales or transfer of " Other

Rifles Pistols " one needed an FFL !. Only asking as I'm NO Authority !!!.

C&R Curios and Relics ; http://www.atf.gov/publication...earms/curios-relics/

Airgun1,

The S&W revolvers you mention are not banned in CA in any way shape or form.

If you want to say limmiting use is a "ban", well unfortunately you are going to have a difficult time with many laws just not gun laws.

Last time I checked most drugs have their use limited but are not banned.

One needs to read CA gun laws. Many CA gun laws are misinterpreted.

From the CA DOJ website:

Effective January 1, 2001, no handgun may be manufactured within California, imported into California for sale, lent, given, kept for sale, or offered/exposed for sale unless that handgun model has passed firing, safety, and drop tests and is certified for sale in California by the Department of Justice. Private party transfers, curio/relic handguns, certain single-action revolvers, and pawn/consignment returns are exempt from this requirement.


The first sentence is all related to sales.

Please note the second sentence:

Private party transfers, curio/relic handguns, certain single-action revolvers, and pawn/consignment returns are exempt from this requirement.

Private parties can sell handguns not on the list thru FFLs.

Feel free to will or give your family heirlooms to your son.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc224/375:
I'll only ask does this qualify as a C&R eligible transfer ?. pre 64 Win 70's. As I don't believe

that this Rifle qualifies with only a C&R license . I looked through ALL Rifles of eligibility on my C&R

list and it's not even close . I was under the assumption to engage in sales or transfer of " Other

Rifles Pistols " one needed an FFL !. Only asking as I'm NO Authority !!!.

C&R Curios and Relics ; http://www.atf.gov/publication...earms/curios-relics/

I have the printed version of the download. I have had a C&R for years. It is listed in there that all pre 64 Winchesters, any caliber, any barrel length, any configuration are C&R. They have all been C&R long before they were 50 years old. This is not just model 70's this is all pre 64 Winchesters.

Don't confuse the military surplus guns as they must be in original full military configuration and at least 50 years old.

Well that is certainly good to know about the C&R revolver exemption!

I was out in California at a shop and the man had some nice old Colts but would not sell them because he said they were not on the approved list and that he couldn't replace them. He informed me of the testing/approval process and how it was so expensive that the manufacturers would only send the most popular version for approval and not the various configs the gun would be made in.

Airgun,

The first rule of gun laws in CA (and quite frankly most states) is don't listen to 50% of what people in gunshops say.

Again, I would urge you to read the law carefully.

Thanks for the info as I wasn't aware they qualified ; You should be cleared to sell the Pre 64 provided you

have a copy of the FFL holder in Kommyfornia and it will only require a transfer too the buyer .


§ 478.49 Duration of license. The license entitles the person to whom issued to engage in the business or activity
specified on the license, within the limitations of the Act and the regulations contained in this part, for a three year
period, unless terminated sooner.
§ 478.50 Locations covered by license. The license covers the class of business or the activity specified in the license
at the address specified therein. A separate license must be obtained for each location at which a firearms or
ammunition business or activity requiring a license under this part is conducted except:
(a) No license is required to cover a separate warehouse used by the licensee solely for storage of firearms or
ammunition if the records required by this part are maintained at the licensed premises served by such warehouse;
(b) A licensed collector may acquire curios and relics at any location, and dispose of curios or relics to any licensee or to
other persons who are residents of the State where the collector’s license is held and the disposition is made.3
(c) A licensee may conduct business at a gun show pursuant to the provision of § 478.100; or
(d) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with
another licensee at any location pursuant to the provision of § 478.100.
§ 478.58 State or other law. A license issued under this part confers no right or privilege to conduct business or
activity contrary to State or other law. The holder of such a license is not by reason of the rights and privileges granted
by that license immune from punishment for operating a firearm or ammunition business or activity in violation of the
provisions of any State or other law. Similarly, compliance with the provisions of any State or other law affords no
immunity under Federal law or regulations.
§ 478.91 Posting of License. Any license issued under this part shall be kept posted and kept available for inspection
on the premises covered by the license.
§ 478.94 Sales or deliveries between licensees. A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer selling
or otherwise disposing of firearms, and a licensed collector selling or otherwise disposing of curios or relics, to another
licensee shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to making the transaction. Verification shall be
established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee’s license and by such other
means as the transferor deems necessary: Provided, That it shall not be required (a) for a transferee who has furnished
a certified copy of its license to a transferor to again furnish such certified copy to that transferor during the term of the
transferee’s current license (b) for a licensee to furnish a certified copy of its license to another licensee if a firearm is
being returned either directly or through another licensee to such licensee and (c) for licensees of multilicensed business
organizations to furnish certified copies of their licenses to other licensed locations operated by such organization:
Provided further, That a multilicensed business organization may furnish to a transferor, in lieu of a certified copy of
each license, a list, certified to be true, correct, and complete, containing the name, address, license number, and the date
of license expiration of each licensed location operated by such organization, and the transferor may sell or otherwise
dispose of firearms as provided by this section to any licensee appearing on such list without requiring a certified copy of
a license therefrom. A transferor licensee who has the certified information required by this section may sell or dispose
of firearms to a licensee for not more than 45 days following the expiration date of the transferee’s license.
§ 478.96 Out-of-State and mail order sales. (c)(1) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer may
sell or deliver a rifle or shotgun, and a licensed collector may sell or deliver a rifle or shotgun that is a curio or relic to a
nonlicensed resident of a State other than the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if –
(i) The purchaser meets with the licensee in person at the licensee’s premises to accomplish the transfer, sale,
and delivery of the rifle or shotgun;
(ii) The licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer complies with the provisions of § 478.102;
3 Exception to this provision is provided for in § 178.96(c)(1)(i) in which a licensed collector is specifically
authorized to sell a curio or relic shotgun or rifle to a nonlicensed resident of another State as long as the
transaction is consummated at the licensed collector’s premises and the transaction is legal in both States.

quote:

The first rule of gun laws in CA (and quite frankly most states) is don't listen to 50% of what people in gunshops say.

Affirmative ... especially the owner/operators of said shops who generally don't have a friggin' clue about much of anything.

Hey Airgun
I apologize too I was not in a good mood this morning but thats no excuse.

I agree Restricted use is basically a ban. But we do still have a single provision in our gun laws that still to this day is yet to be challenged in the legislator. You can still build you own guns as long as they are not currently banned and you never offer it for sale.

As for the Handguns and having to pass the safety BS well that's up to the manufacture. It's not your responsibility to do that. and two You as a private citizen can Import any handgun so long as they are not defined as an assault weapon Via a private party transfer as stated in an above post.

That's how we can get decent collectible handguns out here. you have to find someone willing to sell private party.

As for the Earth quakes. I don't know it's never bothered me I live in an area that doesn't see to much action although that last one in mexico shook the crap out of my house nothing was damaged but my nerves.
It's just the same as you deal with snow every winter it's something you get use to. Earth quake are usually small and don't cause any problems but every once in a while you get a nasty one that knocks over a town.

I'm just waiting for Mexico to annex southern California when that happen I will move but not where you think. I'm going to mexico There's less mexicans there.

quote:

Really not a big deal I'm not sure why so many sissies from outside of CA are so bothered by the extra 3 minutes of work? They're just screwing the gun owners of CA who already have it bad enough.

As with all things legal, you should go straight to the source and see for yourself.

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/

Thanks Mike, glad to have somebody stick up for us. I hate seeing a perfectly good gun for sale and it says I can't have it just because I have the misfortune to live in CA.

Red

Well my fellow Kommyfornian's does this also include components to manufacture Handgun ammo ?.

Or is that the Next surprise coming down the pike ! ???.



# Beginning February 1, 2011, the delivery or transfer of handgun ammunition must occur in a face-to-face transaction, with the recipient providing bona fide evidence of his or her identity and age, subject to specified exceptions. Non-face-to-face transfers, such as internet transactions and mail order deliveries are prohibited. A violation is a misdemeanor. (§ 12318.)


# Beginning February 1, 2011, handgun ammunition vendors must obtain a thumbprint and other information related to handgun ammunition transactions subject to specified exceptions (including transfers to peace officers who are authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope their duties). The information must be retained by the vendor for five years from the date of the transaction. A violation is a misdemeanor. (§ 12061.)


I do believe this is a clear violation of the Interstate commerce law and therefore Unconstitutional !!!.




Interstate commerce refers to the purchase, sale or exchange of commodities, transportation of people, money or goods, and navigation of waters between different states. Interstate commerce is regulated by the federal government as authorized under Article I of the U.S. Constitution. The federal government can also regulate commerce within a state when it may impact interstate movement of goods and services and may strike down state actions which are barriers to such movement.

Socialist Dimwitted DumboCraps screwing " Everyone " out of revenue !!!.

Doc
It should not apply to components but you know how the damn government is.

And it is basically unconstitutional Or in direct opposition to Federal law.