I'm contemplating having a .30-06 03A3 Sporter rebarreled to 6.5-06. I'm looking at two companies to do the work; E.R. Shaw, using their barrel, or Gander Mountain, using a Douglas XX Premium barrel. All things considered, the two companies offer about the same services for the same price. Gander Mtn is a little quicker. Accuracy between the two barrels? Any opinions or experience? I have two rifles with ER Shaw barrels, and they shoot well, not 1/2 MOA rifles, but good 1 MOA. For the 6.5-06, I'm going with a 1/9" twist, 24" #2 contour.
TIA
TAP

TAP, I would weld a friggin pipe to the action before I would spend a penny with E R Shaw.
Good luck with your project

Jimmy

Your advise here may be valid, but could you provide succinct reasons for it.

thanks

kjk

I would go with the Douglas. I'm surprised Gander Mtn can stick a Douglas tube on for the same price as Shaw.

Blue, you bet. The first thing to do is make a phone call an speak person to person with this obnoxious, arrogant asshole. That alone should be enough to turn your business elsewhere.
If you are still not convinced yet, ask about a time frame for your barrel to be delivered.
FYI, I am a die hard Kreiger fan and have been treated very well by these folks. This is just my humble opinion

Go with a Douglas barrel and have Dave at IT&D Custom Gun do the work. Much less expensive than Gander Mt. and I would bet the work quality is better. He's done 6 for me and they've been outstanding. E.R. Shaw is no where near the quality of Douglas, wouldn't own one.

I.T. & D. Custom Gun
2229 Leisure Road, N.W.
Minerva, OH 44657
330-868-6867

Well now, both you and Jimmy say that E. R. Shaw is not near the quality of a Douglas or a Hart or whatever.

And THAT IS FINE.

But why not provide objective evidence so that the person evaluating your statement has something to go on.

For example, ou could say something like "I owned an E. R. Shaw Barrel in 7 x 57. I had it installed on my 1909 Argentine Action by so and so.
He does fabulous work and has made sub minute of angle rifles for me in the past. I worked up load after load after load for that barrel and even on a steady rest the best I could get was 10 inch groups at 100 yards".

That is objective evidence from which the purchaser could make a logical decision about his own purchase, rather than
"the douglas is much better than the E. R. Shaw."

And no, I don't have any stock in E. R. Shaw.

KJK

Ok blue, the whole story:::: I called to speak with Mr Shaw concerning a custom gun Project. I was very impressed with the shaw spiral futing fot this project. After several phone calls and being on hold for 20 minutes I was finally greated by Mr Shaw. I proceeded to explain what I wanted, which is work that he advertises that he does. Cost was not a factor as I wanted the spiral fluting for this project. When I asked questions concerning barrel length, contour and related action work he went off on me as if I had bitch slapped him. These were questions any gun owner would ask.
Now keep in mind blue, I am no cherry to being called foul names but I will be damned if some business owner that I expect to pay several hundreds of dollars to will treat me in that manner.
So, now you have heard the "rest of the story"

The 6-5/06 is a great cartridge and the barrel length, contour and twist is right on. It is obvious you have given this high quality thought. It is a great feeling when the cross hair settle down and you know without a doubt, the rifle is superaccurate and will place that bullet exactly where you want it to go.

It is for that reason, I would not use either of the barrels you mention. First rate rifles must have first rate barrels. If you want an OK rifle, then an OK barrel will do. Shaw barrels are quick and dirty mass produced to sell at a lower price. Most shoot OK and some shoot fairly well, but all are rough and tend to foul. Douglas makes fine barrels but they also sell their seconds on the market. I believe the 2X barrels are their seconds. They lack first rate uniformity and/or have been straighted. If you want a Douglas barrel get their Premium air guaged barrels. It will however cost you as much as a Hart. Companies like Hart do no sell their seconds. A top of the line Douglas, Shilen, Hart, Kreiger, or Obermeyer is the only way to go.

I would never put a second or second rate barrel on a rifle. If money was tight I would just hold off a little while and save up the difference. Everybody must not think like me, as Shaw sell alot of barrels and Douglas sell their seconds. But you asked for our thoughts and now you have mind.

This will probably get me kicked out of the state of Washington, but here goes anyway.

First off, I find it hard to believe that the prices are that close together. In the latest issue of Shotgun News, the tire kickers bible of shooting, ER Shaw's ad shows a chrome moly barrel threaded and chambered for $135.00. Barrel fitting is listed as $60.00. According to what I have heard lapping the lugs, truing the bolt face, and truing the front of the receiver is another $75.00. This comes to a total of $270.00 which is bargain basement prices as far as I can find. If someone else will do a quality job using a Douglas XX barrel for this amount I would definatly be interested in hearing about it.

I also feel they do very good work, just don't ask them to do anything they don't advertise. They won't do it. Case in point, they use one kind of bolt handle and one only. If you ask them if they will weld on one you send them, they will say NO. They will only drill and tap for Weaver or Redfield scope bases, so don't ask them to drill for a set of Talley's. They are an assembly line company and you get very little choice in what you get. Twist rates and contours are all preselected for you. Some people like them, others hate them. If you can live with these limitations, I feel it is a very fair deal for a HUNTING rifle. If you can't I would definately look elsewhere.

Second, I have had several ER Shaw barrels and can honestly say I never had one that didn't shoot more than well enough to kill any animal that walks if I do my part. My pet 275 Rigby on a Yugo 24 Mauser has a Shaw barrel that was installed by a gunsmith and is a very accurate rifle, less than MOA. A 7mm Rem Mag was an exceptional shooter also. I am not saying that I would suggest using one of their barrels on a target rifle, but on a hunting rifle they work fine from what I have seen. As a hunting rifle I feel they will do anything a Douglas XX will, as I have both.

Now for the downside, they are extremely slooooooow. I have heard of times eight months and longer. If this doesn't work for you, don't send an action there with the thought you can get them to do it sooner. It won't work and you will get very frustrated with the whole situation. It is obvious that they must be busy by just how long it takes to get your rifle back.

Bottom line, if you can live with their delivery times and limitation of choices in services, it is more than likely a good deal. If you can't, don't go there, you will end up very frustrated and probably end up bad mouthing them. I do think they should give more realistic delivery times, but everyone I have talked to says it is always longer than what they originally said it would be.

When I first started the "planning" stages of my 6.5-06 I talked with Paul Box at Sierra bullets, since I wanted to shoot mainly 140gr. he recommended a 26" tube with 1X8 twist.

First place I called was E.R Shaw..... didn't have twist or contour I wanted and not a lot of choices on ANYTHING except blueing....next I called Douglas and talked to Fred, the shop foreman.... VERY nice folks to deal with and the 6.5-06 turned out to be the most accurate rifle I've ever owned. I've since had four other rifles builts, all with Douglas Barrels I've bought direct from Douglas..... all have been excellent shooters.... all have been Premium barrels..... don't remember the difference in cost, but not really a lot. CSJ

Blue,

I have read several times recently that Shaw's quality used to be questionable, but also that they have re-tooled fairly recently, and their quality has taken a dramatic improvement. Might be worth a try. I have never owned one though.....

John

I have 2 rifles with Douglas barrel's, very happy with both of them. 1 is a 30-06 on a Garand, it's sub-moa with issue sights, the other is a .257 Roberts 22" Featherweight on a Model 98, it's just over 1/2 moa.

First off; The douglasXX barrel is their premium air guaged barrel and is a very good barrel. I think as good as any CM barrel. By the way, the difference between the premium barrel and the standard barrel is that the standard barrel is not air guaged. It might be as good as the premium but there is no guarantee. Essentially the premium is guaranteed as to dimensional uniformity.
The ER Shaw barrels I have used seemed to be just fine but were not as smooth. They looked to have been broached rather than buttoned. In contouring Shaw barrels they did have a tendency to walk a bit indicating that stress relieving was improperly done. I have never had this problem with a Douglas or a Shilen. Regards, Bill.
I would prefer the Douglas by a wide margin.

When I want a barrel today, the first place I go is to Fred at Douglas.....and XX grade is what I buy. I've had Shaw barrels and actually they wasn't bad at all.....except they seemed to have a lot more copper fouling.

The Douglas barrels sparkle inside (as do Shilen) but I'm just a loyal Douglas fan.

First custom barrel I ever bought was a Douglas and I've found no reason to change. Thus I can't compare them to other barrels 'cause I've never had any to compare. I have two rifles at the smith now being rebarrelled. With Douglas barrels.

Tap:

Sorry it took me a while to find your post. I think you will find this information very interesting. I have 2 Shaw barreled rifles, a 35 Whelen, which is a real shooter, and a 6.5-06, which I have been very unhappy with.

Since your project is a 6.5-06, here is the info. When I received my 1903 Springfield back form Shaw, I was pleased with the quality of the Blueing and the general fit of the barrel. I had tapped the action and modified the bolt myself,so that was not an issue. When I went to establish an overall lenght for my reloads, I could not find the throat with the bullets I wanted to use, 120 Sierras. I could get 140 Speers to touch the rifling, but they were so long the would not fit in the magazine. I called Shaw right away and asked about this problem. You know what answers I got? "Well its because the Springfield is such a short action". When I informed the man on the other end of the phone, that the Springfield was considered a long action with an adequate magazine, he then said, "our reamers are cut to SAMMI spec, when I told him the 6.5-06 was a wildcat and not a SAAMI cartridge, he told me in a nice way that I could return the rifle and they would rebarrel it to another caliber. They were not able to comply with my request for a throat length that would allow me to use my magazine, and seat my bullets close to the lands. I didn't want that so I had Larry Kmoch up in Rawlins Wyoming rechamber, and recut the throat to my satisfaction.

Throating seems to be a problem for people when they are asked to build a 6.5-06 for someone. I think I would ask all these questions before I settle on someone. Now my 6.5 shoots very well.

Jerry

Thanks to all for your responses. RE the costs being similar, Gander Mtn includes squaring the action, lapping lugs, etc. as part of their basic rebarreling charges. ER Shaw charges extra for these services. When these are added to ER Shaw's prices, the costs for each come very close to each other. Yes, I agree, ER Shaw is extremely slow, and it is a negative factor, but Gander Mtn is only a few weeks shorter, 12-13 wks, according to e-mails from them.
I'll check out the other gunsmith and see how much he charges for rebarreling.
The only reason I'm thinking of doing this is because I have an unused 03A3 sporter and I have a set of 6.5-06 dies lying around, and it's a tinkering project. God knows that I don't need another rifle!
TAP

If I could buy a Douglas for the same price as ER Shaw, I'd do it. Haven't used a Shaw barrel, but I can be sure a Douglas barrel will shoot.

If I could buy a Douglas for the same price as ER Shaw, I'd do it. Haven't used a Shaw barrel, but I can be sure a Douglas barrel will shoot. No more often than a barrel is replaced, the difference in the cost of a good one don't amount to much, much like a good scope. Buy the good stuff first, instead of buying cheap and trading for the good stuff later.

When I ask for a douglas bbl to be +- 0 and the groove to be say .284 it is that way with the quality standards airgaged proof packed with the bbl. If ER Shaw does this then why not.

I only have one Douglas barrel on a rifle. Can't speak of accuracy cause I usually don't shoot worth a poop. But I have noticed, and I think this is important to note, it is very hard to find somembody that has had a bad experience with a douglas.

Red

I have a Shaw barrel on a pre-64 Model in 375H&H. Shoots reasonably well ( + - 1.5 inch). BUT it is rough and fouls quickly. Had it cryo'd which maybe improved it.

Have a couple Douglas barrels. My 'smith likes them better (Clyde Moore of D&D Guns) They seem smoother and accuracy is a bit better.

That is about as scientific as I can get.

It has been my experience that I can get a good group [before the barrel is hot and fouled] from any barrel.



I have seen a guy who get sub moa groups with a sewer pipe bore that looks like it is 10 time worse than the worst bore seen on a day at the gun show. He uses Outer's Foul Out.



I have an Addams and Bennet barrel [Midway] that has terrible button chatter. It has one fouling shot, three holes touching at 100m, and then is so fouled with copper it gets 3" groups and takes an hour to clean.



I have a military barrel that will get a 1" group, but after 15 rounds, it need cleaning for 1/2 hour to get the copper out. It only shoots the first three rounds staight, then I have to wait for it to cool.



I have a Lothar Walther barrel that after a couple hundred rounds [with moly], it has never had any copper fouling. It powder fouls in 15 rounds, but cleans in a minute. It shoots straight while too hot to touch.



What does it all mean?

1) When they say "accurate, but it copper fouls quickly", walk away from that brand and don't look back.

2) Unscrew all military, budget, or stock barrels and get a premium barrel that is hand lapped and stress relieved at the factory.



Can't afford a premium barrel?

Wait until you can.