I have some questions about the .30-06 Improved. My Nosler reloading manual states that 180 grain velocities in excess of 2900 fps can be achieved with a 24" barrel. Is this true? If this is the case, it seems that this cartridge would come very close to emulating Remington .300 SAUM and .300 WSM velocities but with higher magazine capacity and fewer feeding problems. Any info would be appreciated.

Chet

I had one in '58, shot well, I thought it was hot, butsince no chrono. was availble, don'r know about the vel. claims

Not exactly what you ask, but I have a 30-06AI in a 15" encore pistol and with IMR4064 (a relativley fast burning powder in this cartridge) I am able to easily achieve 2600fps with 165g bullet. I have never tried 180g bullets in it. I hope this helps somewhat.

At similar pressures, an improved '06 is probably good for fifty FPS more than the standard version. But considering that most standard '06's can do about 2800 FPS with the right powder/bullet combination out of a 24" barrel, this is within "lying" distance of the 2900 in your reference.

I don't think I would bother to redo an existing gun, but if building from "scratch", I might do an improved version. For that matter, if the reamers were available, a version with the shoulder moved forward by .10" or so would be even better (the ability to fire factory ammunition is a non-starter for me).

Most of the claims for big velocity improvements in "improved" cartridges come from the willingness of the owner to raise pressure in pursuit of his pre-conceived notion of velocity gains. But the improved cartridge does offer more positive headspacing, a slight velocity increase, and long case life.

Your notion that WSM performance can be obtained with two (or maybe three) more rounds available in the magazine is right on. In fact, if the WSM were loaded to '06 pressures, there would be little more than 100 FPS difference in the two. Which would you rather have when trying to down a wounded elk going away from you or a similarly situated bear coming toward you? Three WSM's, or six 30-06 Imps?

Stonecreek,

Thanks for the input. My idea was to have a custom rifle built on a Model 70 action and chambered for .30-06 or .30-06 Improved to use as a mountain rifle. I had been looking at doing a .300 WSM, but I was a little concerned over issues with feeding that I have heard on these forums.

I had one, with 165's in a 24" barrel I could get 3000, but that was sizzling and starting to flatten primers. I ended up using the action for something else. I don't personally feel an 06 AI is worth the trouble it entails.

Red

I rechambered a Sako with a 24" barrel to the AI and was able to average 2925fps with 180gr. bullets.Accuracy was better than minute of angle.

I have a 30-06 AI in a Rem 700 with a 23.5" shilen bbl # 3 contour. I shoot Rem cases,CCI 200 primers,60.5 gr IMR 4350 with Speer 180 Hotcores or Rem 180 Core lokts. Get 2934 fps and 1/2" or sometimes smaller groups.(3 shots).This is the MAX load for my rifleHas woked well on Elk and deer. Wont shoot Nosler partitions at all !! I realy like it.

The 30-06AI always gets thrashed a bit on these forums.. I had a shilenbarrel rechambered, got 2850 fps wirh the 200 grs Nosler Partition using our domestic Vihtavuori N560 powder, 64 grs (I believe there is more to gain, but I haven´t got around to it), I can use factory 200 grs ammo without loss of velocity. What´s wrong with that, if it pleases your heart to build and own an Ackley Improved?

Boha

boha, I like your attitude! I get so damn tired of people bashing improved cases just for the sake of doing it. It pleases my heart to own several rifles chambered for Ackley Improved cartridges and I can see no downside to it. Jim

I have had in the past both a 257 AI and a 30-06 AI. Both were all right, and perhaps did all I could expect from them. The 30-06 was on a Remington 721 and had a very long throat. My goal was to see if I could get 2900 out of it using the Nosler 200 grain Partition in a 24 inch barrel. Conclusion of the matter, 2850 was the best I got and I'm sure the pressure was right up there although it was safe by all indications in that particular rifle. I eventually tired of the exercise and bought a 300 Win Mag.

Today I am neither hot nor cold to the idea of them. They are fine if you want one, but for my money I really don't see that much gained by them in the big picture. One thing, as others have mentioned in the past, they are not always easy to get rid of if you tire of the execise. I ended up practically giving the barrels away and the 30-06 was a Hart stainless tube.

Have one made if you really want one, I found few surprises with the two I had. Both were pretty straight forward in fact.

I have no personal experience on this. But I do remember an earlier version of the Hornacy Loading Manual -- the 1977 first edition, if I remember correctly -- listed loads for a 30-06 improved. Hornady's conclusion was that the only difference is that the 30-06 improved burns more powder to accomplish the same velocities.

quote:

Originally posted by boha:

The 30-06AI always gets thrashed a bit on these forums.. I had a shilenbarrel rechambered, got 2850 fps wirh the 200 grs Nosler Partition using our domestic Vihtavuori N560 powder, 64 grs

Using a regular 30-06 -- a Browning Safari on the FN Mauser action -- with a 22 inch barrel, I got 2830 f.p.s. from 200 grain Speer spitzer bullets, using 63 gr. of IMR 7828, Winchester cases, and CCI 200 primers. I know that's slightly less than you got from the 30-06 AI, but it hardly seem significant to me. So why go to the bother and expense of getting the Improved version?

I have a pre '72 Sako that I took out to '06 AI.
I have killed a number of elk with it and Nosler 180 Partitions. Shoots quite well (better than I can).
Would I do it again...most likely not.
Found I was just as happy with my everyday '06 and Fed Prem. 180 NP's off the shelf.
I never ran it across the chrono but the friend that built it for me got 2932 FPS with 180's he said.

Many tests and articles over the decades, general conclusion is alteration is not worth bothering with.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim White:
boha, I like your attitude! I get so damn tired of people bashing improved cases just for the sake of doing it. It pleases my heart to own several rifles chambered for Ackley Improved cartridges and I can see no downside to it. Jim

Maybe we should start calling the AI wildcats only "Ackleys", could be that the word "improved" has negative effect on people. To me they are just calibres.

boha

The .30-06 AIs I've chronographed produced maybe 100 fps. great velocity than the .30-06 with bullets of the same weight, and pressures were right up there. From what i've seen, the extra velocity isn't worth the effort.

I despise wildcats, and mostly I think the AI cartridges are a waste of time. Anything you have to fire-form cases for is a hassle and a logistical nightmare. Why ask for a nuisance that you can well do without?

I like the .30-06 as it stands, and if I want more velocity, one of the .300 magnums makes a lot more sense and will do a whole lot more.

AD

If you enjoy handloading,and getting near factory 300 mag performance with less powder,and still beable to shoot standard 30-06 ammo any time any place any where.......How could it be better ??

The initial praise for the '06 Improved long decades ago was from tremendously hot and unsafe loadings. After this was recognized - it took a while - interest in the cartridge fell off. At the same pressure levels, as previous posters have noted, you might get 50-100 fs more velocity. And wait until you get tired of the rifle and want to sell it ...

Someone has already mentioned that in an early Hornady manual the Ackley imp did not achieve any more velocity than the factory 06. The 06 Ackley Imp increases case capacity by about 3 grs. Most handloaders conceed that heavier military brass has 2 to 3 grs less capacity than say Win brass which has as much capacity as any factory brass.The early Hornady manual used Win cases in the std 06 and military cases in the Improved 06. All they did was increase the military cases to the same capacity as the factory Win. It would have been interesting to see the results using the military cases in the std 06 and the win brass in the improved. This would have created a 5 to 6 grain capacity increase compared to the military brass. A couple years ago I took a brand new 24 in stainless barrel in 3006 and installed it on a 98 action. I then worked up max loads with 150 & 180 gr bullets with 3 different powders and chronographed these. I then had that barrel re-chambered to the Ackley Imp calibre. Same barrel same action. After re-chambering I worked up max loads with the same powders and bullets. The max increase was with the 180 gr bullet and RL22 about 100 fps. Lighter bullets were all less. Each person can decide for themselves if this is worth the cost of re-chambering and purchasing a new set of dies. An additional 100fps doesn't make an appreciable difference in field performance in my opinion. The improved chambering shoots very accurately but no better than the std. Cases seem to last forever in the improved .I am pleased with my Improved rifle but I don't think they are for everyone.

The reason I have been looking for information about the .30-06 Improved is because I am planning a custom rifle on a pre-'64 M70 standard action featherweight and I have never had an "improved" chambering. I initially was thinking I would have it chambered to .30-06, but while looking up reloading info, I found that the fourth and fifth edition Nosler Reloading Manuals showed 180 grain velocities in the mid 2900's for the Improved version. I used to have a .300 Win with a 24" barrel that would only chronograph about 2940 fps with factory 180 grain ammo, so it looked like you could accomplish the same level of performance with a standard action, increased magazine capacity etc. I know, the .300 Win can be loaded faster than factory ammo as well, but in my experience the .300 Win mag is a very capable cartridge even with factory ballistics. Therefore the .30-06 Improved should be equally capable, correct? Also, I already have an excellent .300 Weatherby on a M70 Classic action that I had built by D'Arcy Echols a few years ago that will push 200 grain Accubonds at 3080 fps and group 3 rounds into .3 of an inch. So, I really don't need another .30 cal...I just want a pre-64 featherweight. I'm sure you guy's share the same level of neurosis.

Chet

I have never seen an AI cartridge deliver significantly higher velocities than the standard case without really high operating pressures, far higher than (if there were any)SAMMI specs would ever allow. And even then, the "improved" velocities aren't really much of an improvement. The only way a .30-06 AI will come "close" to matching .300 magnum velocities is if you load the AI really hot, and underload the .300. Load both to their honest potential and the .300 will still kicks the crap out of AI by velocities of up to 150-200 fps or even better. In the real world, "close" ain't all that close........

And besides, there's absolutely nothing "efficient" (that's another misleading term) about wasting powder and bullets forming cases (my time alone is worth a lot more than that futile exercise provides in terms of value), and yes, the resale value of rifles chambered for wildcat cartridges is indeed abysmal.

Ackley would have learned more about the practical side of cartridges if he would have spent more time hunting rather than theorizing and tinkering at the bench. If he would have, he'd have discovered that standard factory cartridges will do it all and without fuss, and he would have come to understand what cartridge logistics and common horse-sense are all about.

AD

I'm in agreement with Allen Day on this. I don't care much for wildcats and don't care much for the "Improved" cartridges except in rare instances.
The exceptions are the 6PPC, which was a wildcat when I first started shooting it. The 270 Gibbs which is a bit of a sentimental favorite because my grandfather hunted with one. The 35 Whelen, which, again, was a wildcat when I first started shooting one and is cartridge I've always thought was kind of a classic. The 375/338 and the 416 Taylor round out the list. These are, in my mind anyway, just very practical cartridges which actually fill a niche left void by the factories.
Still, almost anything you want to do can be done with a factory cartridge. In fact, it can be done with a cartridge developed prior to 1930.
The advantages of standard cartridges are legion and not restricted to the availabilty of factory ammunition. Dies are cheap and common. Performance is proven and, in most cases, can be tailored to the task. The "Improved" cartridges, while they often look kind of neat, don't perform all that much better than the parent cartridge when both are loaded to the same pressures.
The 30/06 Improved is a bit unique because, of all the improved cartridges, it is the one for which all the reamers have been ground incorrectly since it's inception. If the chamber is cut to the correct headspace, the length of the chamber will be approximately .030 longer than the specs call for. This is due to an error in labelling on the original drawings which has been perpetuated by all of the makers. This may be one reason 30/06 chambers seem to have long throats. The throat is located .030 ahead of where it should be. On the bright side, case trimming should never be necessary!
Ultimately "because I think it's neat" is all the justification a shooter needs, or should need, for having a partricular chambering. So, if you like the idea, go ahead. Just don't try to juctify your choice based on practical conciderations because that bird won't fly! Regards, Bill.

I always thought the 300 Weatherby was an improved version of the 300 H&H. All you have to do to make the Weatherby was fire a H&H and presto.....Course the 300 Win mag is another improved H&H case. Just shortened up a bit....Nothing new about improved cartridges is there...........

It's interesting that you brought that point up, because it's the truth. The .300 Weatherby is indeed nothing more than an "improved" version of the .300 H&H, and beats the fine old 1925 "Super Thirty" by about the same margin that the .30-06 AI beats the .30 Govt.'06 -- about 100 fps. give or take a few.

Ultimately, basic case capacity is what counts the most, not expanded shoulders..........

AD

I'll buy that my 06 IMP. never gave me much more than 75 to 100 FPS and only then with heavy bullets, with the new inhanced ammo, the std. 06 will outperform the IMP version...so I sold the imp version, and kept my std 30-06.

My pre 64 M-70, 300 H&H will almost catch up to a 300 wby with heavy bullets, so I sold my Wby as it was loud and not as sleek a gun, and I
ve had my H&H since 1950 as I recall...Thats a miracle in itself with this old gun whore. Must be something to that caliber..

I had an old Sears Mauser rechambered on a whim to the 30-06 Improved long ago and I still have it. The velocity increase is modest as other have pointed out but I have no other problems with it. If someone does not already have one it's good clean fun.

A M 70 Featherweight was mentioned and those barrels have very little meat over the chambers and in particular over the shoulder so I would not do an improved on a M 70 Featherweight. It may always work of course but.....

The chamber I had was done right so factory ammo shoots very well with perfect headspace. This is the only way I would go on this. Running the reamer in more to get a little bigger chamber would make a white elephant with an oversize base and a general hassle.

Mine is loaded up with a full charge pushing the 200 gr Speer Hot Core. It's sort of a make believe 300 magnum. It's not really one but within a couple of hundred yards nothing wants to be in the way of that rifle.

In his "Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders" Ackley has nothing but good things to say about the 30-06 AI.

"This and similar improved versions of the well known 30/06 have developed into quite controversial cartridges. Actually they have a great deal of merit and for handloaders they can be highly recommended. Various articles have appeared in sporting magazines (and in posts here) written by individuals who do not believe in the "improved" ideal. Invariably loads appear in these articles which do no credit to the cartridge while the loads which really show something have been carefully left out. A cartridge which has gained such world wide popularity does not do it without merit. Since ints introduction just after Wold War II it has become one of the most popular of all wildcat or improved cartridges. Cases are made by firing factory loads in the improved chamber, and of course factory ammunition can regulary be used in the improved chamber without serious loss in velocity. This cartridge is particularly good with bullets of 180 gr. or heavier and with these bullets it equals the standard factory .300 H&H Magnum factory loads."

He then lists a load with 180 gr bullet at 3050 fps with IMR4350.

Ackley didn't highly recommend too many of the improved cartridges and proclaimed many as failures (e.g. 270 Win AI). The 30-06 AI is one of the few that Ackley highly recommended. Brass will last longer and it's a classic. If you want it there are only good reasons to build it.

What a lot of people seem to forget is....Back when ( sounds old dosent it) P.O.Ackly was experimenting there was no 300 Win mag,338win mag etc ,pressure testing labs,and many many others.Wonder what we would be shooting if it wasent for him.....He shortened,improved, blew out,blew up,and did as bout as much as anybody ever has for the shooters in this world.Even gave us instructions and drawings to build a chronograph. Besides being a top notch guns smith. He was 1 hell of a teacher and inventer..................

quote:

At similar pressures, an improved '06 is probably good for fifty FPS more than the standard version.

This has been verified again and again.....

I don't have a 30/06 imp, but I would highly recommend my favorite the 22/250 imp. Using 2 take off new Remington 223 barrels I built a standard 22/250 and a improved version. My improved shoots about 150-200 fps faster than the standard chambering ALL DAY LONG! Now that I've irked some of the posters here with that speedy claim, I'll explain why I get so much more zip with my improved. The almost straight case walls of the improved version grip the sides of the chamber so much better than the very tapered 22/250 case putting much less pressure on the bolt face. I'm sure I run higher pressures in the improved, but, with much less wear and tear on my brass. I rarely have to trim my improved cases even with the higher pressures. Another kudos for the improved. My standard 22/250 cases constantly have to be trimmed, although not as much as a 220 Swift. In a prarie dog gun that you want to shoot till you can't see past the mirage the on the barrel the improved version is far superior in my world.

allen day
Did you know that Ackley's pick if he were limited to only ONE GUN was a factory cartridge that was about as far as you could get away from an improved design.

I wonder if anyone knows what that was????

The improved cartridges are labeled that way for more than just velocity alone. There are many other benefits that I have seen in my rifles!

As for resale value, I'd rather have a customer think he has something special, something he can't find at the local gun shop. Resale value should be the farthest thing from his mind when he is shooting his rifle!!!!!!!!!!!

gunmaker

Velocity is like cheap beer. Quantity has it's own quality!

This debate is an old one and has been hashed out on AR before.

Here is why people get differant results with the 30-06 A I.

If you have a 22 inch barrel, you will not get much over 50 fps increase. How ever if you have a 24 inch barrel you will see at least 100 fps increase AND if you throat the AI chamber for 180 gr bullets seated out with the base of the bullet at the neck shoulder junction you will get at least 150 fps gain over the standard chamber. Now I dont know about anyone else but 150 to 200 fps gain in velocity with 180 grain bullets is worth the trouble.

Besides some of us are just born experimenters and enjoy this type of tinkering. Not much differant than the satisfaction of developing a good hand load. If it is not practical to fool around with AI type cartridges then it is not practical to hand load at all, you should just stick to factory ammo, after all most of it is pretty accurate and performs well too.

I've built and hunted with several 257 AI, shoots flat as a laser, kills like lightning. Loads are sane with no pressure signs what soever yet velocities are 200 fps over the standard 257 Roberts. My favorite 257 AI has killed 11 head of game, 2 hogs and 9 whitetails, with 11 shots.

I've chambered a few 22-250 AI, same story, scorching velocities, mild pressure, long case life, a satisfying wildcat.

And what about the 22 K Hornet? Much better cartridge than the standard Hornet. Even accuracy is better due to more positve headspacing and bullet/throat alignment.

quote:

Originally posted by Craftsman:

If it is not practical to fool around with AI type cartridges then it is not practical to hand load at all...

Sorry, but that is not at all a good argument.

Handloading and converting a rifle into a non-factory-loaded caliber are two different things that are not of equal status. With a factory-loaded cartridge, you can handload or use factory ammo, as you wish, or as circumstances dictate (e.g., you lose or use up you ammo on a hunt, so you buy some factory loaded stuff to keep you going). With a non-factory-loaded cartridge you are forced to handload.

An AI is not quite the same as a true wildcat.....you can still use factory ammo just fine in a proper AI chamber.......

There is a huge difference between fire-forming cases and simply reloading factory cases for a standard factory cartridge that you don't have to fire-form. Plus, it's important that the headstamp of your case match the caliber designation on your barrel, especially if you hunt overseas.

There always seems to be some notion that a wildcat version of a standard factory cartridge is going to somehow automatically provide better accuracy and demonstrably, often dramatically better killing power.

One local guy adds about 100 fps. with his .280 AI over a regular .280 Rem., and to hear him tell it, when a bullet from that .280 AI and its extra 100 fps. hits game, it not only kills it stone-dead on the spot, but it levitates it, performs an airplane spin, then finishes with a bodyslam, and witness stand in speechless awe over what they've just witnessed. High-drama every time the trigger is pulled! He's also convinced that his .280 AI also (somehow!) kills much more reliably than the faster 7mm Rem. Mag., from which the same bullets are said to bounce off.

Jack O'Connor dryly observed: "Has anyone ever heard of a wildcat that didn't shoot into less than an inch and kill like a lightning bolt?"

I haven't, that's for darned sure!

AD

Gunmaker,
That whole "straight walled case gripping the chamber" things is demonstrably, BS. The standard 22-250 grips the chamber wall sufficiently to separate cases if headspace is excessive. If it already grips the walls sufficiently to exceed the strength of the brass, increasing the amount of grip is meaningless. The thing is that, if you are loading to the limit of the brass in one, you can load to the same limits in the other. Loading to the limit of the brass is not a recommended procedure in any case. I do believe you can see a pretty significant increase between the 22-250 and the 22-250AI. About the same as the difference between the 22-250 and the 220 Swift.
Possibly due to sheer ineptitude on my part, I have never been able to get my cases to stretch as badly in standard calibers as others often report. My 303 British (a far from improved cartridge) match rifle cases seem to grow at about the same rate as my 6BR and they are loaded pretty darn hot (over 2700 with 174s). Regards, Bill.

Bill
I'm just going on info I gleaned from Ackley's Volume 1 HANDBOOK FOR SHOOTERS AND RELOADERS, chapter "pressure" starting on page 137. Call me a fool, but I really believe the info in the book. Maybe I'm a little biased in my opinion because I attended the gunsmithing school Ackley started.
gunmaker

Gunmaker,
No problem. I believed, implicitly, everything in that book too when I first read it forty-some years ago. Subsequent experience in the intervening years led me to believe this particular theory is, simply put, wrong in actual practice. This is my opinion though and there is just as good reason to question my ideas as anyone's! Regards, Bill.

For a man's only gun, I think anything other than a factory cartridge might not be the best choice.

After that, I say, build whatever turns your crank!!

As far as efficiency goes, if that were my main raison d'etre in life, I not only wouldn't own a "wildcat", I wouldn't handload, or even hunt!

After all, it is usually much faster, easier, and cheaper (more efficient) in the industrialized nations to get your meat at the supermarket.

As for selling the rifle, what are you guys talking about? <G> Trade, Oui! Sell, Non! Find a 20 year old Shotgun News. Look at the prices. Get this month's issue of Gun List, look at those prices. Sell?

Loaded sensibly, the Ackleys work well and are fun to experiment/play with. What other justification does a rifle crank need?

Please don't rain on a fellow rifleman's parade, unless what he proposes is actually dangerous. This game is supposed to be FUN, not "right", or "wrong", or "efficient".

Alberta Canuck

I have no Ackley imp cart. but do have several Gibbs.I think the Gibbs is about max imp. on '06 case. The 30 Gibbs is 2nd only to the 340 Gibbs in my favorites. I load the 30 to 3150 with H450 type powders and 180gr. bullets.. May be able to go higher but this works fine with no pressure signs. Thanks to this thread I took my 30 out this am and fired a few. Mauser action with a 26" Pedersen barrel.The 35 Brown/Whelan I have is basically a Gibbs and it is a great cart. as well.If there is no need for imp.30's then there is prob no need for 300 Win. or any other magnums but that is another story. When I began with the Gibbs line 30-06 brass was nearly free and mag. brass was a buck apiece here.Just my opinion but I like wildcats. Mark