I have a rifle that has persistant rust.


This is my Grandfather's hunting rifle. He won it in a raffle in the 1950's. I rescued it from 30 years of gun cabinet purgatory. My Uncle had it and didn't take care of it.

Since I got permanent custody, the surface rust is slow but persistant. If there is a gun within 20 miles that is rusting, the Savage will rust in sympathy. Johnson's paste wax(the non-abrasive kind) slows the process down quite a bit. About every three months I have to field strip the gun and remove the surface rust(soak in break free and steel wool), them reapply the paste wax.

This is where things get sticky.

I have been listening to the Traditionalists. This is an unaltered M99. I have been resistant to a refinish and/or reblue. But rust never sleeps. I want to keep this gun going for another 50 years. I think it is time to consider rebluing the gun. I don't think it would be a good thing to take it hunting with the rust problems it has now.

I have tons of Oxpho on hand. I could do the job myself. I am considering sending the gun to a pro and doing it right.

What would you guys do?

Thanks

ZM

No pun intended here...but have you thought about having it rust blued?

There are several guys on here (Customstox for one) that could give you a good opinion on having that done as well as give you an idea of what it would cost and what kind of protection you could expect.

I am open to anything right now. Hopefully those folks will chime in.


ZM

"Rust Never Sleeps"

Neil Young can be a dork, but that was a great album, and an even better concert film.

Remember the "Road Eyes"?

"Powderfinger" is one of his best straight ahead rockers, and "Pochahontas..." is his quintessential whiner song.

LD

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
"Rust Never Sleeps"

Neil Young can be a dork, but that was a great album, and an even better concert film.

Remember the "Road Eyes"?

"Powderfinger" is one of his best straight ahead rockers, and "Pochahontas..." is his quintessential whiner song.

LD

I thought it was an appropriate thread title. The rust on the Savage has been going strong for years.

ZM

Look out mama theres a white boat commin up the river.....When the first shot hit the dog I saw it commin...

Oh crap, I had a bunch of Neil young tapes

A man with a bic pin had eleven dollar bills, badge out paid off , says hes got a bad couch. Opps thats Dylan.

How about Ramblin Jack Elliot?

I've got the CD cranking right now. Next in the stack is Warren Zevon's last one ever. Nice version of "Knocking on Heaven's Door".

If that was my rifle, I would have it rust blued, and the wood refinished in a urethane to handle that weather over on the other side of the Cascades from here. Then hunt with it for another fifty years.

Back in the day, the rich English sports and explorers would send their guns back to whoever made them to be refinished and repaired as needed.

LD

Forget the purists who say to leave it alone. You need to have that rifle blued or its persistant rust will ruin it over time. I like the idea of a nice rust blue but even a hot blue would be preferable to dealing with the potential continued rusting. In the long run it will save it value and provide you with years of enjoyment. Right now it is a big pain in the ...

Anyone who advised against rebluing a rifle that was rusting is neither a traditionalist or a purist in my mind...he’s an idiot.

This is a beautiful old rifle but it certainly isn’t going to be hanging in a museum somewhere.

I can see someone advising not to spray paint it, but a nice bluing job will return it to its original form and protect the metal at the same time.

It sounds like you have tried everything to clean it but the rust is too deep into the metal.

It also sounds like you are very particular with this piece of family history.

You didn't say whether there were pits, dings scratchs, or things like that. How's it look under the wood? Done right, as a rule of thumb, the depth of the deepest ding is how much metal will have to be removed evenly to clean it up.
The original metal finish can be duplicated fairly closely, the color, not likely whatever the process so I wouldn't worry about that.

As far as the "tradionalists," hang them. I'd rather hand down a working usefull item of family history than a rusty tent peg, and a rusted up Savage 99 is worth "nada". Where a cleaned up Savage 99 to the family as they say could be priceless.

Don

Send it to someone who really knows rust bluing. I've had a couple of SxS' s done that looked like total toast that were "brought back from the dead" with a high quality rust blue job. I wouldn't worry too much about all the pits, some will likely be too deep to polish out, you'll just have to live with them. I think you're lookin' to make Gramps' rifle a shooter, not a museum piece, and Gramps' would probably like that just fine.

I had a Rem 700 when I lived on Kodiak Island
and when I brought it home from hunting it would rust. Kept oiling it and cleaning it and it would continue to rust. Salt was under the oil and continued to rust. Now when I am around salt water I clean rifle with hot water
first. Let it dry then use wax or oil to protect blue.

quote:

Originally posted by stdon:
It sounds like you have tried everything to clean it but the rust is too deep into the metal.

It also sounds like you are very particular with this piece of family history.

You didn't say whether there were pits, dings scratchs, or things like that. How's it look under the wood? Done right, as a rule of thumb, the depth of the deepest ding is how much metal will have to be removed evenly to clean it up.
The original metal finish can be duplicated fairly closely, the color, not likely whatever the process so I wouldn't worry about that.

As far as the "tradionalists," hang them. I'd rather hand down a working usefull item of family history than a rusty tent peg, and a rusted up Savage 99 is worth "nada". Where a cleaned up Savage 99 to the family as they say could be priceless.

Don

There are the usual marks from being dragged over every stump in the Tillamook Burn. No external pitting. There is a line at the forearm stockline where it tried to rust. I got that one in time. It likes to surface rust where the OEM bluing is wore off. Like where my Grandfather (and me) carry the gun by the reciever.

I did some accurizing work to it, found an old-school scope and now it a great shooter.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:
Send it to someone who really knows rust bluing.

Any recommendations? Even better if there is someone that does rust bluing close to me.

Thanks
ZM

I've been doing rust blue for over 20 yrs. I'd be happy to blue it for you, but unfortunately, don't have time to polish the rifle for you.

Chic has been doing rust blue for some time, as well.

This is obviously a working rifle, not a museum piece.

I would get it bead blasted, then Oxpho blue it myself. (A Brownells product.)

Oxpho blue can look really shitty on polished metal surfaces, but makes a nice matte black on heated, bead-blasted surfaces (especially when worked in with 0000 steel wool.)

You can then re-Oxpho the surfaces that wear thin from handling.

It will definitely stop rust in its tracks, so consider using it on the rifle as is while you make up your mind on other methods.

Don't bead blast a Savage 99! That will look UGLY and also, beaded finish jobs are less rust resistant than smooth finishes (just ask anyone who hunts a Remington 870 Express!)

Take that rifle to a gunsmith, plonk down a small cash outlay and have the old-timer looking like the day it left the factory in no time at all.

Well as you have to do something to fix the problem give this to someone that will make it better than original .A great polish and rust blue properly gets my vote.
Glenn

A couple of thoughts.

I don't really understand where someone says that Bead Blasting makes a firearm rust more. Here in Oregon where "we don't tan, we rust", Bead Blast bluing is pretty much the norm.

My customers and those of the other Gunsmiths around that send their customers to me for bluing, pretty much demand it. Like anything else, hot bluing with a B/B finish has shown itself to be a very durable and attractive finish. I've been doing it since the early '80s and haven't had a return/redo yet. And these have always been hunting machines, not hearth guns. Hunting seasons here are usually stinking wet and cold for both the rifle shooters and the wing shooters that hunt in the waterfowl fly zone that goes through here.

Stripped, hand finished and a follow up with a very fine media will produce a very pleasing, smooth satin black finish that looks good with wood, plastic or camo.

I've done more than 2 99c's like this and they turn out very nice.

Don

Zeke

I've had the same experience as StDon. For several years now, I have been hot bluing guns that have been prepped by thorough polishing to 400 grit, then bead blasting with very fine beads. The result is a very pleasing egg shell luster similar in appearance to rust blue. It has a quality look. Has proven to be very rust resistant with no returns or complaints after bluing no telling how many guns this way.

Be aware that some people get bead blasting confused with sand blasting. Sand blast and blue is not very rust resistant. Also some shops end up with a mix of beads in differant grits, sand, rust, rat turds and no telling what in their blasting cabinet, resulting in poor rust resistance and appearance.

One more tid bit. If a piece of metal is rusting and you place it in boiling distilled water for 20 minutes, it will "kill" the rust. I've done it for customers who did not want to refinish many times. Normal rust preventive measures will work after the "treatment".

a light frosted bead blast WILL come out looking like dark parkerizing over a 400 grit finish, true. However, unless you keep it positively soaked in oil, it will rust fasted than that same finish left polished and then blued. The micro-crazed surface will retain water while the smooth surface will tend to sheet it off.

Make no mistake - a bead blast is a labor saving technique many people opt for to save the money a smith wants to charge to get the showroom finish that many guns deserve but never get.

I'm not argueing it doesn't work - it does, but the kind of user who let his gun rust to the point it needs a bead and blue early in its life will likely be back in a couple seasons to repay for the same service again - maybe not a bad thing for the smith!

Remington switched to a matte finish on the CDL recently not because of huge customer demand, but because it lowered manufacturing cost - they could polish less, bead and blue. Since that time, bead and blue has been asked for ALOT more by the public who "want their gun finished like a new Remington"

Sad, really.

quote:

Originally posted by Claven2:
a light frosted bead blast WILL come out looking like dark parkerizing over a 400 grit finish, Again, you artrue. However, unless you keep it positively soaked in oil, it will rust fasted than that same finish left polished and then blued. The micro-crazed surface will retain water while the smooth surface will tend to sheet it off.

Make no mistake - a bead blast is a labor saving technique many people opt for to save the money a smith wants to charge to get the showroom finish that many guns deserve but never get.

I'm not argueing it doesn't work - it does, but the kind of user who let his gun rust to the point it needs a bead and blue early in its life will likely be back in a couple seasons to repay for the same service again - maybe not a bad thing for the smith!

Remington switched to a matte finish on the CDL recently not because of huge customer demand, but because it lowered manufacturing cost - they could polish less, bead and blue. Since that time, bead and blue has been asked for ALOT more by the public who "want their gun finished like a new Remington"

Sad, really.

About the Bead Blast part. B/S

I have been doing that finish since 1985 on countless firearms. Handguns, Rifles, Shotguns. And all working in the wet tools. Hard working tools. Not ONE return in over 20 years. Repeat, not ONE return. Nor, not ONE dissatisified customer.

Claven2, you are speaking out, not of facts but of your own busy theory where facts are not in evidence or support. And it is obvious you do not have any knowledge of proper metal processing or refinishing procedures.

A properly done deluxe B/B blue has more labor steps involved than strictly a Deluxe polished Blue. The 'Smith still has to go through the same steps necessary to be able to call it Deluxe. NO pits, Dings, Scratches and all work must be accurate and dead level before bead blasting. Any hiccup will show up big time.

For any finish desired by the CUSTOMER the same care has to go into a job no matter which finish someone is after. The firearm still has to be totally taken apart, cleaned and stripped before any metal refinishing can be started. Those that "Blow and Go" do not have customer satisfaction and rarely stay in business.

As Craftsman said, you are obviously confusing sand and other heavy abrasive grit blasting with bead blasting. Totally discernable.
I have many different grits and micron media from heavy to media that has about the consistancy of talcum powder that I use depending on what the job calls for. Personally, I very rarely touch a piece to a wheel and do most all polishing and prep work by hand.
So, to assert that we are lazy, looking for a quick buck is another misconception that you shouldn't have. That is confusing your own ideals with others that enjoy their work.

A good refinisher has a lot of tricks up his sleeve to either duplicate a stock firearm finish, or refinish a piece to a customer's wants and needs. From making a black Parkerized looking finish to restoring a Colts Bisley made in 1901 that was left in a holster for 40 years to a case worn Python.

Yes, there are times when a firearm comes in that has been neglected. The rust pits, scratchs, whatever are too deep and too much metal has to be removed for a polishing. Guess what is the best way to make sure that the corrosion is removed from the pits. A good cleaning, stripping and bead blasting will return a useable firearm to a customer where the economics aren't there to do otherwise.

Another falsehood you assert as "fact". No, one does not have to dribble oil over a bead blasted finish to keep it from rusting due to the increased surface area, or any other reason for that matter. The normal care and upkeep one would do for any type of blued carbon steel firearm is all that is required. I don't care what it is or what finish it has, if you use it in the rain and stick it in a case wet, the next morning it will be red.

Sad, yes it is. It is sad that ignorance can be perpetuated so easily on the internet.

Don

My personal observation from sanding and polishing some blades and dealing with several waterfowl shotguns (including an 870 Express) on the Texas Gulf coast:

Bare metal carbon steel rusts faster the rougher the finish is. I have a VERY hard time believing that this is somehow not the case with blued carbon steel. Nothing in myexperience says different.

I have a lot of experience with corrosion, living literally feet from the Gulf of Mexico.

Look up a phenomina called crevice corrosion sometime. Basically once corrosion starts in a pocket it self-catalyzed by becoming acidic.

Yes, a sand blast is worse than a bead blast because the crevices are deeper and rougher, but I will take a LOT of convincing before I'll ever believe that a bead blast finish, no matter how fine, is more resistant to rust than a polished finish with the same bluing on it. Good maybe. Good enough, maybe. Better, I don't think so.

It seems we have two full time gunsmiths, both with more than 20 years experience each with one opinion and a couple of arm chair experts with the opposite opinion who by the way can not tell the differance between sand blasting or courese contaminated beads and 600 mesh clean beads.

One of the experts does not realize that Remington matte finish guns are blasted with 80 grit silica (cheap sand) which cuts the metal not peen thereby making it very suseptable to rust.

A quality 400 grit polished finish is very rust resistant. When you bead blast with very fine mesh beads you peen the surface, not cut it, thereby making it even more rust resistant.

I have personal guns finished in this matter that have been subjected to rain and hard use many times and I can tell you from experience and years of satisfied customers that this type of finish works.

Microscopically sand looks like jagged rocks, glass beads look like marbles. Sand cuts and craters metal, glass beads peen the metal, actually making the surface harder and slicker.

Like Stdon said, it is no short cut, it is MORE work, you have to bring the metal to a 400 grit polish with no scratches, pits or flaws, then bead blast.

quote:

Claven2, you are speaking out, not of facts but of your own busy theory where facts are not in evidence or support. And it is obvious you do not have any knowledge of proper metal processing or refinishing procedures.

Don

We can debate credentials if you like. Here's mine. I have a Mechanical Engineering degree from UNB in Canada. Graduated in 1999. Have 7 years experience working in materials science and steels. I work in a 10 million dollar lab with both destructive and non-destructive testing aparatus, including testing of surface finishing of steel alloys.

A bead blasted finish will rust before a polished finish will because it will retain more water. Period. I've sene it happen personally in countless laboratory experiments. This is far more scientific than your assertion that none of your customers have complained or returned guns you bead blasted. Get real.

A beaded finish is a nice finish, I own several guns with that finish, but it is NOT as corrosion resistent. Adequate? Yes, but not better.

quote:

So, to assert that we are lazy, looking for a quick buck is another misconception that you shouldn't have. That is confusing your own ideals with others that enjoy their work.

Please point out where I called you lazy? As for my "own ideals", care to step off the soap box and debate me with your head rather than your misdirected anger?

My arguement is not that you are deceiving people by having a gun blasted or whatever. Only that a blasted surface will rust faster. And yes, it is LESS labor.

A polished surface without ripples has to be draw filed and then hand-polished with polishing blocks down to at least 400 grit to look professional. A BEAD blasted finish (yes, I think I know the difference between beading and sanding - don't be condescending) only needs to be draw filed and polished to maybe what? 200 grit? Bead blasting requires less fine surface prep. Yes, the labor to remove pits, etc. is the same. the beading itself takes no time at all if you are capable with a blasting nozzle.

In my neck of the woods, owners often demand the beaded finish for low glare, because it's cool, because it looks like park, etc. But purely from a corrosin resistance standpoint, it rusts more easily. This is fact and you can;t dispute it rationally.

Here's an experiment. Take a piece of low carbone steel flat bar. Cut it in half. Do your bead finish on one half and polish to 40 0grit on the other half. Blue both at the same time in the same tank.

Nest pour a glass of tap water. Use putty to build a dam around both samples. Cover both in water and let evaporate. Then watch till one rusts. I promise you that if the conditions are equal for both pieces of steel the blasted surface will rust first. Why? Because a broken surface has more surface area exposed to the air and the micro-crazed pits will retain water longer than the polished surface. It WILL rust first. This is FACT, not anecdote.

I'll throw out one more observation then leave the egos to rant...

A smooth finish wears better. A beaded finish had slight highs and lows. The highs well wear the bluing off faster because they get more contact/abrasion/etc.

My degree is Electrical Engineering with a lot of Chemical Engineering (minor in chemistry, FWIW) courses. My work frequently goes into places like the Gulf of Mexico, and I live in one of the most corrosive areas in the United States...coastal South Texas.

I never doubted your assertation that you have a lot of satisfied customers. IMO that speaks well of your skills in bluing, not the comparision of bead vs. polish. Like Claven suggested...take 2 pieces of barrel from the same blank, polish one to a mirror finish and blast the other. Blue together so they have an identical finish. Put them on your front porch and check them periodically.

It's easy, and it's analytical...no egos or opinions involved.

Look, I really don't want this topic to be about egos, so let me take the rhetoric down a notch and just say that I'm perfectly willing to agree to disagree. I don't intend to disrespect your collective gunsmithing skill or knowledge, I'm sure it's very refined and well-learned.

From an engineering standpoint, however, my opinion on corrosion resistance differs. that's it in a nutshell. And in the end, any gunsmith will produce the finish his customers ask for, so the point is likely moot.