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I got chastised, an rightfully so, for jumping on the Tom Burgess thread. My question has to do with what to do with all the "visitors" who come to the shop and won't leave. As I said before, should one charge for the time spent if you felt it was excessive? Or, would you do like a lawyer and charge anyway? It cuts into productive time but yet one doesn't want to offend the client, unless of course he is an attorney, even a bad one. Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | ||
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I greet them at the door. If they look like they want to make it a social visit, I hand them a broom and tell them to follow me. Most business can be conducted within 10 minutes. You have to take control. It's your shop, your time. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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A simple posting of "office hours" might work. A simple Sign: As both the gunsmith and the business manager, I need to structure the day so I can effectively provide the gunsmithing services that all customers want. Office Hours are used for taking in work, discussing potential projects, and picking up work: They are: 7:30-8:30 daily 12:00-1:00 daily 5:00-6:00 daily and by appointment I am generally unable to answer the phone or entertain visitors at other times as I am busy working on your project or another customer's project. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Give them about 5-10 minutes on the phone or in person and then with a smile on your face say " I've really enjoyed our conversation and hate to cut this short but I really need to get back to work" It's always' worked for me. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I can tell you Westpac's method is very effective: there is a patch of carpet on his living room floor near the front door. He instructs you to stand there out of consideration for his Wife's living room carpet. Very business like and not at all offensive. I know from others telling me they tried to get tours of his shop that this method has saved him much shop time. | |||
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Got me a new welcome mat.   _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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No Mo 4 Me, You're a liar I took 1 step inside Guy's house and he threw my ass out...I got the message loud and clear. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Jim ; A good friend who owned a Gun shop had a sign up which read . Hello too all my Patrons ; I'm informing you my fee is constant my work ethic consistent if you wish to BS and waste your time ; then we will do so at your house tonight . What's for dinner ?. I always liked that Guy and bought many many things from him . He even invited me to BBQ lunches during his lunch hour at work , when ever I was in the Neighborhood . I know how it is to have ones time wasted . That's why I send it by mail , So I don't waste yours . | |||
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I went to am Amish shop and when I purchased an item he asked me is there anything else you need ? I said thanks no ! and he walked away and started doing what he was doing when I came in . Don't take the chip ! | |||
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In a similar vein, when you're busy being productive and someone asks if you have a minute, my favorite reply is to say, "For you, I have 3 minutes!" and then hold up 3 fingers. A lot of time they ge the hint and make it brief. for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
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tip lets dona answer the phone..... www.burnsgunrepair.com go big or go home ........ DSC-- Life Member NRA--Life member DRSS--9.3x74 r Chapuis | |||
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I have "visited" with many Smiths that have done work for me. Some for a few minutes, and some for a half day because they wanted to visit. I remember visiting with Don Allen when his shop was in Northfied, MN, and with Peter Noreen when his shop was in Minnesota before he moved and started the company that eventually ended up in Greg Hein's hands. I have now put away a considerable sum to have custom work done on my two G.33/40 actions and one Pre-64 Model 70 action. I can tell you this. The Smith who is going to get all of that work is a guy who has allowed me to visit with him in his shop for considerable periods of time without so much as a peep that I was wasting his time. | |||
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WRF I'd have to guess two things: 1 The guy receiving the work was glad to give you time he could have spent making $$ 2 There are plenty of other guys who would rather have customers that are a bit more sensitive about consuming their working time to geegaw. | |||
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The guy getting the work is a gentleman who knows that spending some time with his customers is good for business. I am sure that there are plenty of other guys who don't think that way. And of course that is their perogative. I have no problem with it. Its their right. I just wouldn't give them any work. | |||
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Personally, I'd a lot rather have a good smith be gruff and cut a visit short so he could get back to work on whatever he's working on. It could be mine, or it could be the person 4 projects in front of mine. I think the golden rule applies, I'd want him working not sitting around BSing whether it was my project or someone else who wants their's just as bad as I want mine. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Malm, those footprints look awful familiar...somewhere in my memory from 30 years ago...it was a very long night as I recall. Anyway, I have two bits of advice: First, I use a Bluetooth headset while in the shop so if someone calls I can chat while working. If they sound of the mill, lathe or blast cabinet doesn't get them off the phone, nothing will. Second, when I have a visitor in the shop, once I've taken their gun and tagged it, I go back to work. If they want to stay and watch me work I don't mind as long as I'm not working on their gun. Most people realize quickly that I'm busy and take off. John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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So, I can spend $1000's on some Prima Donna's talent, but if I stay at the shop any longer than it takes to drop of MY guns and MY money, I get told to get lost? My response to that is F Off! I am also a talented, skilled technician. I can talk and work at the same time. Nobody has to sue me to get their furnace fixed. If I say I'll be there by noon, I'll be there by noon, not NEXT YEAR! I can participate in an online discussion with my peers without any back stabbing. I make money and stay in business. I don't mean to paint everyone with the same broad brush. Maybe I only notice the exceptions, but there are some smiths with issues. I think some guys here need some customer service lessons. Communicate, do good work, charge accordingly. Jason | |||
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Having been working in a skilled trade for the last 20 years, I can honestly say I don't mind people coming into the shop and kibitzing. I'm a kibitzer at heart and don't mind a slight loss of revenue due to commiserating with my fellow man. (Half the time I can keep on working while conversing. It's one of the simpler multi-tasks.) I really do want to hear other opinions/ideas. I might learn something, and if a customer considers himself to be my friend and leaves the shop feeling good about our relationship he is likely to be a repeat customer. If I loose too much time, I make it up by working a little later. Stop by when you're in the area! The coffee pot is on! | |||
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My old gunsmith, back when he was still doing gun work, made things pretty simple. He got to work around 7:00AM, drank a cup or two of coffee, then started up the lathe around 7:20 and got after it. When the lathe or mill lit up, the earbuds when in and he'd jam out to whatever was on his pocket radio. Once he got in that zone, you'd damn near have to light him on fire to get his attention. Therefore, if you had business with him and wished to visit, he would glady meet you at the shop at 7:00 and drink a cup of coffee with you. Then he'd turn his back and be gone - that's about all the visit you'd get out of him. You could also swing by right around 4:00 when he closed up the shop and pick up your work. Between the hours of 7 and 4 though, you'd do better speaking to a fence post. Consequently he got few visitors and no tire-kickers. Jason "Chance favors the prepared mind." | |||
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Once again, business training will benefit all gunmakers. Learning good business practices and how to deal with people would go a long way to teaching the gunmaker how to handle these situations. It takes work and effort to learn better people skills, sales, customer care, and just generally how to be a nice guy in business who is also firm. Business owners (in all fields, not just gunmakers) need to spend more time learning business and people and less time learning details of their craft. They spend hours and hours reading gun books and magazines and internet forums, but most spend no time reading business and “people” books. The skill will not come by osmosis. Talking to successful business people is how to gain the desired skill. Fellow blind hogs can be great resources many times when chosen properly, but proper ones are few and far between. Almost no one understands how to truly make business work. That is why the overwhelming majority of Earth’s population is employees that take orders from someone slightly higher up, who usually has only a slightly better grasp on the big picture. Find people who at the top of their game and talk to them. For any business problem you have, go seek out the most successful business people you get to know them. Humbly go to them and explain that you need to learn so you can grow your business. Develop relationships with these people just as you develop relationships with other gunmakers. Many people will call a gun expert who can help them with specific gunmaking tasks, but these same people will not call a business expert when there is a business question. Would you call a banker who does not even own a gun to help you build a quarter rib for the first time? There is no simple, single answer to this question. If you want to move things to the next level then start regularly meeting with business owners in your area and begin a systematic plan of learning more about business and how to deal with people. If you want specifics, then start with a guy right there in the Twin Cities. Buy Harvey McKay’s books “Swim With the Sharks Without Being Eaten Alive” and “Beware the Naked Man Who Offers You His Shirt.” Then read “Difficult Conversations” and “Getting to Yes.” Reading these books will get you going and supplement what you learn from local business people. | |||
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Gotcha!!  Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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The most important part to running a sucessful business is relationships. I can't count how many people I have talked to who can't understand why one guy who does similiar or even less good work does more business. The simple answer is relationships. People are paying for the whole experience, not just the work being done. You also need to remember that guys anal enough to appreciate the minute details of a finely crafted custom gun also want to talk about it and be envolved in the process. The laid back guys that don't give a shit buy off the rack and have no desire for more. Here is the key to time managment, not every client is a good client. You need to select who you work with. The clients that give you the most business get the most time. The prospects that represent the most potential business get the most time. Know your market and take care of those customers and just like a PH who is paid to hunt AND entertain the client many times wants more then just good metal work. | |||
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Jim, I was a sole proprietor for 8 years and I didn't (don't) have an answer to the Marketing/Sales/Work equation. It was an unforgiving pendulum that never stopped in the middle. | |||
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I believe there are customers and potential customers , then there are Tire kickers and Looky Lu's . Some are just idle curiosity information suckers and have no intentions of spending a dime . All I've ever asked of a Smith is to be honest . I send the Firearm after either a phone or E mail conversation in which I out line what I would like done . He reply's either he can or can't or believes that I would be better served having a different procedure done and it's explained . Price is set and off goes my Firearm . A Smith can correspond with me during his coffee or while setting on the can or after dinner , as it really makes no difference too Me when he does . I've never been Anal about needing to know every detail and aspect of progress concerning his work on my firearm . I simply don't pay people to work on my stuff I don't trust !. It's why I pick them carefully and TRUST THEM !. They will let me know if something has come up and I need not pester them . It makes for a best case scenario . I pay they work I butt out we stay on good terms .  | |||
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Having been in the professional services business a long time...I can tell you it is about making and keeping promises and being consistent. Clients are very understanding when you are consistent, proefessional and tell them the truth. If you spend the 30 seconds to explain why you can't or can chat at the moment they will understand. When you say something will be don next week...have it done...if its going to be late, tell them in advance...not when they call up and ask about it. If you don't know, tell them you don't know. But beware, people who can afford custom gunsmithing are usually pretty succesful and they make think twice engaging a gunsmith who says...I have no idea when I will be able to get to your project. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Talking money is often taboo, but here goes. Some might not agree but my simple answer is to charge more for your work and make your prices known up front. How much depends on how good your work is. If you can't make enough on your work to have a bit of time with your clients, you are not charging enough. Sure it hurts a bit when someone says that they would NEVER pay THAT much for a custom gun. Simply raise your head and say, well that's the price I GET for my work and don't be ashamed of it. When you raise your prices, you will loose a few customers but the ones you really wanted in the first place will stick around for the good work that you do. Raise it a bit at a time until you see business falling off. Leave it alone once you get to a comfortable amount of work. When I worked as a contractor I started working at $20/hr and soon found out that I wasn't making enough money to stay in business. When I ended my business only 6 years later, I was charging $60/hr and was as busy as I wanted to be without any advertising. Making the same amount on 5 guns as on the 7 that you did previously (or what ever #), is what you want. If your prices are considerably low, you might even see an increase in business as perceived value goes up. You won't cause the customer to say to him/herself, why is his work so cheap? It LOOKS like he does a good job but if he really did he would charge more, what's wrong??? Jim, Your work is very good, don't be afraid to charge for it. It is always possible that your scheduling is off (you have taken on more than you can do) but it isn't uncommon that the price of your work is the issue. If you have taken on too much, the higher prices will soon take care of this issue also as your work load will slow down. This will also allow you a better chance of doing the work on schedule. High end gunmakers from overseas charge A LOT more than most American custom gunmakers. By looking at the work, it is often not any better and in a lot of cases we do a better job, but we charge less. Granted, imported guns often come from more established makers and have the exotic appeal but.... Jumping from part time to full time was a bit of a challenge but after the initial wind up, it has worked for me and the people that want the best still come around. These are the people that see what I have done and appreciate it and I am seldom too busy to talk with someone like that. They are usually very enjoyable people to be around. The ones that are not are, most of the time, the ones that don't want friendship anyway. They just want you to do their work and get what they came for. They are not talkers and so with them the "problem" isn't there in the first place. Often they are too busy making money (that you need), to talk. I'll happily do work for them as well. Their money spends the same. | |||
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Ah yes, Receiving Barracks, MCRD San Diego. It'll be 40 years this fall. Semper Fi! | |||
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So, Jason, you're suggesting that people like to chat with you for hours about furnaces? You hang with one wild crowd!  John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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Yes, they do. Do you find it odd that people are interested in professions other than yours? You build toys, I make it possible for humans to live outside the tropics. I think there is plenty to talk about. You build toys, I keep food safe. You build toys, I keep coddled old farts on social security alive to complain another day. Clearly I'm almost godlike. And humble! Jason | |||
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And we have a winner! Simple supply and demand. There is only a limited supply of YOUR talent. If there is excess demand, you simply raise your prices and let it be known what those prices are. Do you think this guy spends a lot of time on the phone with tire kickers? Heineke Working for free is just going to cause frustration on your part which is going to either cause you to be another grumpy old gunsmith, or to get out of the business. John | |||
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Whether he does or not I do not know. I do know he does great work. He is a perfect example of what Trez described. He does really good work and is not afraid to charge accordingly. I was sorry he was not at the last ACGG gathering as he was one person, among others, whose work I really wanted to see again. ****************************** "We do not exaggerate when we state positively that the remodelled Springfield is the best and most suitable "all 'round" rifle".......Seymour Griffin, GRIFFIN & HOWE, Inc. | |||
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The guy getting the work is a gentleman who knows that spending some time with his customers is good for business. I am sure that there are plenty of other guys who don't think that way. And of course that is their perogative. I have no problem with it. Its their right. I just wouldn't give them any work.[/QUOTE] I invest hundreds of hrs. in PR "personal relations" time every year. Quotes, questions, and just BS. Trust me a smile and a great attitude will bring you work but being "TO PROFESSIONAL" or "COLD" will run some good money off to other pockets. Maybee mine. Thanks for the $$$ . ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I just submitted the second part to an article on starting abusienss. In the portion on sales I make the statement that you start out to DISQUALIFY every prospect you meet. It is the best way to do things, but few will undertsand it and out of them few have the guts to do it. BTW-this is always to be done politely and professioanlly, but it really should be done. Way too complicated to fully explain it here. My friends Trez and Nate have this philosophy as well. THe number one thing wrong with this industry is that people do not charge properly for their work. Correct that problem and many others go away. Well, that is the NUmber 2 thing. The Number one problem is a general lack of busienss knowledge by gunsmiths. The more they learn about busienss the omore they should realize how severely they are underhcarging. ANd if someone just won't leavem well, I have never had a problem getting my point across when I was not happy. THat trait really came in handy when managing industrial construction and mill operations. A good friend who worked a large job with me once told me, "When you say 'No,' you don't mean "Maybe'!" Come one Kobe, grow a pair! Maybe you need to pour a little gunpowder on your Cornflakes every morning! | |||
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Jim! Does this mean I can't call you every morning with the latest joke? Butch | |||
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I am not too busy to do the work that I have. I was just concerned about a guy that stopped over the other day and just sat around. I didn't know if I should humor him or ignore him. He was a nice enough guy and I did not want to piss him off or send him on his way. At least he was not an attorney. Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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Jason, you seen wound awful tight. Have you thought about going decaf? I'm in no way criticizing your profession. Hell, I install/maintain/fix my own furnaces and AC units; have done so for years so I know what you're up against. And I agree, damned important equipment, but lighten up or you're going to burst a pipe and R12 is getting tough to get! John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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We do have something in common with the HVAC boy's. We too work on heaters. Our heaters are much cooler though. No pun intended... _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Used to work in an old smith's shop. He was a master, but crotchety (sp?). If he wouldn't do it, and sometimes he wouldn't, I got to do it. Good gunsmiths are artists. They are cantankerous (sp?) and you ought to at least listen to them. If they don't want to do something, there is usually a good reason. (Lord knows I figured that out on his reject projects). Saw a great sign in a gunsmith's shop yesterday. It had a posted fee of $50.00 for finding loaded ammunition in any firearm. Thought that was classic. | |||
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This should be a $50,000 fee! My good friend, Jim Gaston, worked for Siegle's Guns in Oakland, CA. Some stumblefuck brought in a .25 auto...Jim picked it up and moved the slide back...BANG. right thru his hand! Surgeries later, hand still FU'd...what price? | |||
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I find live rounds in customers chambers several times a year. Some, the customers tell me about, and then there are those I discover on my own. I've become numb to it. Anymore, I expect it and treat it accordingly. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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