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If a fellow received a FFL transfer for me of an immaculate firearm and threw away (or claimed to) the box, important because it was insured, and the muzzle of a brand new except test firing custom firearm looked like THIS  ...And the one of you here that built said firearm said it didn't ship that way, and is a KNOWN GOOD GUY, would it be good or bad manners to mention this to others? He was rude and curt when I asked about the shipping materials and didn't answer email. I don't want anything out of him but help in explaining the damage. Him throwing away the box and his behavior make it look like he's the culprit. He also assembled the taken down for shipping purposes long arm when all he needed to do was record the serial number and conduct the transfer. I didn't hire him to be my gunsmith, I don't carry an FFL but I have a machine shop and plenty of smithy tools...He's a BLACK RIFLE and PLASTIC GUN guy and I tried him out for his low charge for handling transfers, not to have him touch my custom firearm. Custom hunting rifles aren't mattel toys and you shouldn't bash them or drop them, as people notice when you do. this isn't a Rack Grade firearm...it's NEW (with a dinged muzzle). I own a couple CZs and Rems with laminate stocks for when I want a gun I don't care about damaging the finish of in handling and hunting... Let it go or write about the incident on the web to protect others? SOMEBODY dropped it nose first on a concrete floor. The SOMEBODY looks to be the FFL until proven otherwise. Maybe USPS dinged things but him throwing away the box was suspicious and leaves me with no recourse if USPS caused the damage. I called and said I'd be on the way there to pick it up yesterday and the door was locked with the open sign on when I got there so after a while he opened up again and said he'd been direct quote "putting out some garbage". Seems fishy to me. The fact he was rude-ish on the telephone today when I politely inquired after the packaging doesn't help his standing with me, nor ignoring a polite email preceding the phone call I made today. Rifle is fixable but I'm suspicious of his ethics because of how things came down and how he responded to polite inquiry for the packaging it shipped in. Web post could save somebody else the hassle of dealing with him but could also make it look like sour grapes... Opinions are welcome. I tend to cut people slack if they fess up or are helpful and don't if they act squirrelly. Heck, in my auto/boat/equipment mechanic days, on two occasions I accidentally damaged customer cars and once did something that was arguable as to who was at fault (as it was a rusty pos and everything you touched seemed to break off or crack) but I fessed up and rectified things, I even went halves with the rustbucket even if it wasn't much my doing. Cuts my wages a bit but I sleep well. Thanks, PM ...and Merry Christmas to ALL except maybe one vexing person related to this story ;-) | ||
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You didn't say whether you asked this fellow directly whether he dropped your rifle on the floor. I think I would show him the rifle and ask him face to face whether that damage was caused by him, and if so what he planned to do about it. | |||
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It's a bit of a hike and I had other things to do today. I sent him an email last night after the 'one of KNOWN GOOD GUY BUILDERS" here confirmed he did not ship it that way by any means inquiring about if the box was damaged, if he still had box, etc, asking about the damage...When he didn't reply to email, I called him about 3pm local time (as it's the day before christmas and most people go home early) and he said more or less "it came out of the UNDAMAGED box that way" in a curt fashion. Not at all friendly. I politely tried to follow up with if he had noticed the damage and he repeated "came out of the box that way and the garbagemen already came..." Didn't seem much point in pursuing things. Don't know how the post office could embed concrete chips in the abraded octagon point and side through cardboard if the box wasn't damaged... Likely closed until Saturday. Files, stones, and some Oxpho will fix it. Not sure it warrants a 90 mile round trip and the fact he didn't answer email previously and was curt on the phone doesn't lead me to expect much more. I should have examined the rifle before conducting the transfer but I trusted the builder. When I got to the shop to pick it up, it was on the glass counter in a cleaning cradle, assembled (which I hadn't asked for), pointing directly muzzle away from anyway I'd see the damage. I'm used to receiving everything, new purchase and transfers from every other FFL I've dealt with in my life IN THE ORIGINAL SHIPPING BOX. if I buy a new gun it goes home with me NIB. If I have a transfer of a new gun it comes home with me NIB with original packing everywhere else. Came home. Talked to builder. He said he didn't ship it that way. It was insured. I inquired about the box for insurance purposes in the email that was ignored and phone inquiry and that's where it stands. Seems fishy to me. All he needed to do was log the serial and transfer it to me. Not gunsmith or probably drop it nose first on his shop floor. Dunno, as it stands it seems I'll fix it myself with no compensation from anyone and maybe mention to people to avoid this guy, but I don't like doing that to people if it's not proven...hence the post. | |||
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Plot thickens, he's been saying the rifle was not there yet since the end of last week when it should have been there. Finally transferred it to me on the 23. Builder ran tracking on the package: "I was thinking; and I ran the tracking #; that package was delivered on the 18th; last Friday; makes you wonder what he did with it for all those days." That makes me inclined to drop the hammer on the FFL but I still don't like badmouthing people...All hearsay without evidence. PM wanders off scratching his head and wonders if he can fix it yet or should wait until this is resolved, so as to have evidence... This is a good time to go load for it, I guess. Off to the loading bench... Any other opinions welcome. | |||
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Take a number, Precision Man. Get in line behind jorge, everyone who's been done wrong by Bill Soverns, Forrest, who is a Saint, and a gazillion other guys who muck up this forum with personal problems. If anyone else cared, we'd have Country Western crooners bleeting "My Gunsmith Done Me Wrong" songs. Maybe you could commission one? And we haven't even got to Jack Belk. Yet. Tell you wife, Precision Man, tell your Chaplain, tell your retriever. Tell your transfer agent. Now... If you posted something like "My fifteen year-old daughter is going out with a Hells Angel with more tattoos than god, and she really likes him...." I'd be concerned. If you wrote something like "My girlfriend gave me herpes and my wife found out..." I'd be concerned. Sheesh, if you wrote something like "My retriever has kidney failure, and I'm going to have to put her down...." I'd be sympathetic. Here's the deal. Precision Man. You've been mislead by recent posts. This is not the whiners forum. This is the Gunsmithing Forum. Buck Up, Precision Man. You could be a Jew in the Warsaw Ghetto. You could be living in France during the occupation. You could be living in London during the Blitz. flaco | |||
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flaco is kind of dead on. Why don't you just re-crown and put this behind you?...not worth all the anguish! | |||
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AR also has plenty of smart aleck whiners about "topics posted" such as yourself. CRY ME A RIVER, WON'T YOU? Maybe you're as old as my dead grandfather and know everything. If so, maybe you could have said: A: I'd blow it off and let it go. or B: You should try tomake the guy fix things. I smith, this guy is no smith, the BUILDER is a KNOWN GOOD GUY "ONE OF US", and it is a legitimate ethical question REGARDING THE GUNSMITHING BUSINESS as to if it's better to leave such things alone or warn people about a guy, CAPICHE? A LOT OF LOW VOLUME WORK GUNSMITHS DO NOT CARRY THEIR OWN FFLs, and use outside FFLs. It's a small community, word gets around fast, I was curious as to the best way to handle it. Thanks for the page of insults but it wasn't a useful answer and I wasn't whining, I WAS ASKING ADVICE as to what would be the best BUSINESSLIKE WAY to handle such a situation. All I've learned so far is you are rude. Considering the effort you put into that post, I'm sure you're very important and so I'll ignore all your future posts. If anybody has a useful answer as to if it would be a better decision to let it slide or pursue it, feel free. THIS IS A BUSINESS QUESTION. I'd never run into such a situation before with somebody else in the trade and I was asking for guidance on the best way to handle things. When Looking for Advice on How to Be a Good Member of The Gunsmith Community I like to Ask Fellow Smiths for some odd reason. Likely because they would have good advice, not childish behavior and insults. Thanks, | |||
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That's likely what I will do. I was just asking a business ethics question because either way I go on this, word will get around. I didn't realize adding a small amount of ascii to the enormous storage that drives AR would cause flaco so much anguish. | |||
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If it's not worth the hassle of driving over to ask him if he did it, why is it worth the hassle of pissing & moaning on the web? Is it possible you and your transfer agent would both be happier if you never saw each other again? Especially if he MAYBE didn't do it.... | |||
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Windshield time and hassle is about the same as the time it will take to FIX IT and I sure wouldn't do business with a curt, rude person, outside of one really good welder I sometimes use because he really is that good. Wasn't pissing and moaning, ethics question. NOTICE I DIDN'T NAME ANY NAMES. There was no need for Get in line behind jorge, everyone who's been done wrong by Bill Soverns, Forrest, who is a Saint, and a gazillion other guys who muck up this forum with personal problems. --About as useful as me telling somebody that wants to repair a Mini-14 "Nah, you don't want a Mini-14, get an AR and throw that away" Question was, "if you were in my AO and this guy was questionable in my opinion, would it be nice of me to warn ya?" With the internet, on some levels, everybody is in everybody's AO. As I recall gunsmithing is a BUSINESS, it is to me, so I thought a BUSINESS ETHICS QUESTION WAS OK to ask here. sorry to use up a few more pixels of your life, flaco...you'll live or ignore this thread | |||
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Thank you so much for this post! As I read, it just kept getting better and better. Now we just need someone to post pics of some nicely shaped walnut and steel to put the world right. Forrest NRA Life Member GOA Life Member Distinguished Rifleman President's Hundred | |||
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I'll be nice to you. Flaco was rude.    Have I made the whiners happy yet? If you don't like a thread, don't read it. See you jokers around the classifieds. Thanks for reminding me why I just generally call or email SOME OF YOU when I have a question, metal-wood-ethics, instead of bothering with here much at all, as people tends towards, rude isntead of helpful. Merry Christmas to those deserving and May God Smite the people who think "snarky" is either funny or useful. PM | |||
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Thank you, Chisana- I know what "Distinguished" means. We need more like you on this forum. flaco | |||
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Precision Man I wish you were not being rude to the people who are being rude to you. Otherwise I understand your angst. To everyone else: How can you fail to see why Precision Man is upset? He has a custom rifle transferred through a local FFL. - The local FFL assembles the rifle that had been shipped disassembled. - The local FFL lies about when the rifle arrived. - The local FFL disposed of the packaging material even though he said the rifle came out of the box in its current damaged state. The FFL was hired to transfer the rifle, not assemble it. This seems odd... Was he just doing some free smithing for you?  I doubt it.... I think you should mention who transferred the rifle for you. Don't accuse him of anything, just let us know who it was. If it was an honest mistake I would say recrown it and move on, but something smells fishy here... Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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What is a little "windshield time" in the pursuit of ethics? I sympathize with you sir. I do not understand your inability to just go, take the rifle and ask him? Perhaps intimidation plays a part in this? If you are intimidated by the individual in question, I can understand that! I hope you can find a resolution! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Sounds like they need to change the name from "Gunsmithing" to "Grumpy Old Men" Forum  | |||
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JMB and P.O. Ackley were distinguished. Some of y'all are just internet noise to the best of my knowledge. You're still reading the thread you whined about even existing. Proved my point that you were the whiner, didn't ya? Good on ya, | |||
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That means he is operating outside the law and anyone operating a business outside the law should be carefully scrutinized. Yes there are ways around the FFL when it comes to parts but technically he is operating a business with out the proper licensing. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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What a shame. I do understand your frustration. That said I would probably follow Duane's advice and get it fixed. Shouldn't cost too much and it just might make it a better shooter. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Precision Man, I understand your frustration and your post is not out of line as far as I am concerned. I also don't think you were being rude to anyone here. Many of us post our complaints about a manufacturer's product, warranty service or a bad hunt if it is not as expected. I don't see much difference in this post. You have a custom rifle and someone who's service you used messed it up. Whether you post the person's name or not is up to you. Since the person does not do work on a national level (local to your area I assume) I don't know if the name would do much for many here. If I was in California, I would ask you for it or PM you. I hope others won't be discouraged to post their complaints due to the complainers about your post. Thank you for your post. | |||
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PM I can only say I understand your anger and frustration with this receiving FFL,if he was at fault,his behavior is bad and you should avoid him. If you are able to fix the gun I suggest you do so and obviously seek a different lic. holder to do your transfers in the future,however before sticking him in the eye with Public Downdressing I would acess my own position if I was indeed "smithing" without a license. I see kcstott posted on the subject that was of most interest to me.... I would be careful about writing for the world to see that I was in obvious violation of Federal Statutes regarding the practice of conducting business as a Gunsmith without the required FFL. I can only hope that your "smithing" is done as a personal hobby and you are not taking in outside work for others,I am not giving legal advice but I suggest that you seek same for clarification of the position you are putting yourself in.A battle of words with him could cost you more trouble than recrowning and touching up. I am hoping it works out for you,and you can put it behind you as one of those live and learn experiences. Paul | |||
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In my experince people who get mad and curt right off are normally the ones that have done something wrong. They use the anger as a cover up and hope that yo well belive them and not press them any more. I don't understand why he took it out of the box and threw the box away. Just to cover himself you would think he would have let the customer open the package. When I run into business people like him I don't do any more business with them nor lots of others I tell. To all business men or people doing business one bad deal well lose you more money and business then you well ever lose making something right. | |||
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There are people pissing on each other here. I don't like that. I think I will PM the moderator and ask him to close this thread... | |||
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I do BLACK POWDER for customers and Some BARREL work and other bits that don't require RECEIVERS OR FRAMES. I do Rimfire and Centerfire stuff for MYSELF ONLY. At times I had CAST ROUGH RECEIVERS FOR ANTIQUE TYPE RIFLES that were minus firing pin holes and barrel holes and the other things that would make one at all possibly a receiver but it was a failure as a business for lack of market. Not even friends get unlicensed work from me. They have the wrong kind of bars in jails and they don't have Merle on the jukebox, it's probably rap music or something...Doing things illegal would interfere with my enjoyment of life. technically you can (or maybe can't) build 50 or less firearms a year for yourself, and people have hazarded the idea that you can then later on sell such things. I'll let the daredevils do that. besides, I mostly am interested in 19th century and before rifles outside of general utility firearms I have for personal purposes. At one point I did general repair under the SHOP OWNER'S LICENSE which is entirely LEGAL as well. It was really boring. Well Aware of the laws. I'm fixing it, moving on, and not asking ethical questions here again. Feel free to close the thread. Regards to those that weren't rude. It was an honest question. As to feeling intimidated, not really, more like it was a waste of time. The dude has a little shop in a little town and isn't of any particular merit to anyone. He ignored email, he lied about when it arrived, etc. What use would spending a couple hours of windshield time be? To go up there and have him tell me to go f myself?...Which is what he's basically done up to this point anyway PM | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TC1: What a shame. I do understand your frustration. That said I would probably follow Duane's advice and get it fixed. Shouldn't cost too much and it just might make it a better shooter. Terry[/QUOTE Most, or at least many, original 19th century rifles had bright muzzles, I'll use this as an excuse to slightly adjust the edge contour with a very gentle radius and make it shiny and bright. Just files, stones, and polishing up time...don't think it's even worth bothering with the mill for... Regards, | |||
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Here is where I EXIT and don't come back. | |||
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Okay, let's talk ethics a bit. To me it is not ethical to accuse a man of something one SUSPECTS him of as if it was an absolute fact...particularly in front of thousands of observors. I do think it is fair to ask him privately to make good on damage which he actually caused, IF one knows for sure it is a fact he did the damage. I don't think it is fair or ethical to expect him to make it good if one does not know for certain he did the dirty deed. I do think it is ethical to review what you expected of him AND whether YOU explained that to him at the get-go. Many small dealers are not fully experienced businessmen, even in their own trade. They can hardly be expected to log in a rifle and not look at it unless directed otherwise. Their ignorance (and admiration for the rifle) may lead them to assemble it. If I expected them not to, I would tell them that in advance. I've found through experience that few can read my mind. The fact that they assemble the rifle does not make them stupid, evil, or in any way ill-intentioned. It may just mean that in their small business they haven't encountered customers who do not want their gun touched any more than is needed to read the serial number. They may even think they are doing you a favour. I know in the past I have seen many small gunshop owners receive shipments where the bolt was not in a rifle when they opened the box, so they put the bolt in the rifle and (horrors) snapped the trigger. I've seen others who have received other long guns which were more disassembled than that. They assembled them and operated them to make sure all the parts were received and functioned, before they called the customer to let him know it was there. They wanted to know it was or wasn't in working condition when they got it. I can understand a fellow unused to take-down rifles having an impulse to do the same. When having any object of particular special value sent to a third party, I think it only fair to point out all the actions which might reduce that value so that he/she can know in advance what NOT to do. If he had been specifically told not to treat the gun as he would any other that just came in from, say, his regular wholesale supplier, and not to assemble it, and he violated those instructions, I would say it would be fair to talk about his not following instructions. I don't think trashing a guy's reputation on-line when all that hasn't occured is a good thing to do. So, unless you can find out for sure what happened, I think your ethical course of action is to vent your frustration somewhere else and let this one slide, distasteful as it may be to swallow. AC | |||
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As above "I'm fixing it, moving on, and not asking ethical questions here again." I sent him a polite email asking why things transpired as they did. In the future I would advise people against using him based on my experience if he continues to be uncommunicative. Otherwise, he's just somebody I never intend to do business with again. End of story, end of angst. However, I will continue to say THROWING AWAY THE SHIPPING in the case of a damaged rifle was daft on his part as it makes him look guilty, not USPS. That was his call. I'll go back to paying more for transfers at the places that don't do anything they don't have to do and don't have your rifle for most all of a week saying they haven't received it. I know USPS tracking is imperfect but this guy doesn't seem very good on reliability either. Regards, AND NO THANKS AT ALL TO THE FOLKS SUGGESTING I WAS A CRIMINAL That's the nail in me doing anything but classifieds on AR. AR has taught me 1)I am a criminal when I'm not 2)I don't know how to hunt 3)I own the wrong types of firearms 4)I really don't like the things I like 5)It's more often a source of insulting behavior than information 6)Nobody hunts any animal properly 7)My favorite guns suck 8)My favorite calibers suck 9)Occasionally there's a nice person about that's helpful 10)The rest "seem" to be insulting grumpy old men, probably caused by the fact that people that actually smith a lot don't have time to post a lot, although usually straight shooters in trading stuff in the classifieds. Haven't been ripped off once by an AR member. So Classifieds only for me from now on. Just like this FFL of question and our lack of future business dealings. Y'all won't miss me and I won't miss y'all for the most part and nobody will spike my blood pressure and sugars because they insulted me for no reason. We'll all sleep better. Win-Win all around. Good Night and May Most of You Have A Pleasant Tomorrow, Excepting people that inferred me being a criminal and people that whine a lot END OF FILE | |||
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11) My shit doesn't stink, everybody else's does. Best wishes for a happy and prosperous New Year. | |||
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