I'm confused! I'm looking for rifles that I can use in the future for some nice custom projects. You're thinking Mauser, right? The catch is that I need to be able to use them in their current configuration for hunting until I have the custom work done. And I would like to go with a CRF of current manufacture, for availability more than anything else. So, I read this forum and others and I think I've got it all figured out. First choice: CZ 550, Second choice: Winchester M70 Classic, Distant Third choice: Ruger.

So I call the gun shop that I have been dealing with for quite some time, and I tell the owner what I am looking for and ask for one more opinion. Before I unveil the results, this guy has been in the gun business for a long time and he has never steered me wrong with any recommendations that I have asked for. His recommendation... First choice: Ruger, Second choice: Winchester M70 Classic, Third choice: CZ 550. The exact opposite of what popular concensus seems to be here. I know that this is only one man's opinion, but this guy knows guns, period. What gives!?!?

How can a rifle be loved by one set of experts and hated by another set of experts? I'm not really sure what my point was now, but I guess I'll ask if anyone has any input on the accuracy of either ordered list and what you would recommend given the guidelines that I have laid out. I probably shouldn't torture myself with such decisions, but I want good quality, solid, reliable rifle, and I'm getting confused with all the conflicting reports.

Thanks,
Bob

Bob,

Perhaps the difference in ordering is the difference between selling guns versus owning and shooting guns. There aren't as many CZ dealers out there as there are Remington/Ruger/Winchester dealers.

If you take a specific example like a CRF .375 H&H, then compare the CZ against the Winchester and the Ruger equivalents it is clear to me that the CZ is way more rifle for the price than you get from the other two makers.

jim dodd

"How can a rifle be loved by one set of experts and hated by another set of experts?"

Because most of the experts are human. I mean which do you prefer Ford of Chevy? You think all the car experts agree. Shoot, some of them even like British cars.

I ask you why would guns be any different? I would guess that your dealer has had lots of experiance with Rugers and has not been let down by them. Also I would guess he has less experiance with CZ rifles, not bad experiance persay, but to him they maybe of unknown quality.

To me the choice for a bolt action would be Win, then CZ, then Ruger. I do not put Ruger in a distant third, but a definate third. That is unless I was doing something BIG, then the Win goes away. Rems are not invited to compete.

Kristofer

bobvthunter said---

quote:

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How can a rifle be loved by one set of experts and hated by another set of experts?

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Who said anything at ALL about "hating" a gun. The fact that anyone picks one over the other can be driven by many things. If you're bothered by multiple opinions why ask for them?

My pick?? An old Mauser like a M-21 Brno with a cracked or shortened stock, or other problem.......maybe an old Model B in an oddball caliber....an early FN or Browning.....or a pre-64 M-70.

It's *GOT* to be a new rifle?? GOT to?? New!?

OK-- I'll take a CZ.....I wouldn't consider the others.

My opinion and worth at least double what you paid for it.

If you do plan to customize, restock, etc. later, but want something really nice and special that will always hold its value in the mean time, then I'd buy an older FN commercial Mauser in one of its forms (factory rifle, Browning, JC Higgins, Monkey Wards, Marlin 455, HVA, Sako, etc.), a Brno like Mr. Belk suggests, or maybe a pre-64 M-70.

1. Maybe the gunshop owner thought the Ruger would be easier for YOU to work on.

2. Maybe he has more of them for sale than the other brands.

3. Maybe in your neck of the woods Rugers are less expensive than the others.

4. Maybe the gunshop owner is dyslexic and really meant the Win 70 to be first. I dunno.

The woods are full of older Mauser "sporters". Look around and you'll find a nice one sooner or later. Latch on to it, use it during hunting season and do whatever custom stuff you want to have done during the off season. I've done this with these old sporters more than a few times. You can end up with a really nice rifle if you take your time.

Hello Bobvthunter

When I was a young newly qualified engineer that knew everything, I was lucky enough to spend 5 years working under an old English Engineer. If I came across something "to good to be true" and waxed enthusiastic, he would puff away on his cigarette, wait quietly until I paused for breath, then blow out a smoke ring and ask "Who's doing the talking?"

It didn't take too long for me to realise that the end-users, who have nothing to gain, tend to give a more objective answer.

I notice that no-one has addressed the possibility that the gunshop might just make a better profit on the Ruger. They are, after all, in the business to run at a profit.

cheers edi

Maby, just maby the guy thinks the Ruger is a better rifle.
They DO cost less, than a Winchester any way.
Seems there are two opinions on Rugers, people who own them & love them, and people who don't own one and think it's a second class gun.
Sure the factory trigger sucks, name a factory sporter that dosn't ? Most new ones will shoot just as good if not better than a new Win. or Rem. Totally reliable ( can you say that about a NEW winchester) ?
The best bet is to handle each rifle ( if you can find a CZ ) and pick the one that feels best to you. You may not impress to many people with a Ruger, but you'll fill tags !

If you want a custom but don't have the cash or the time for it right now, how about one of those Montana barreled actions and a B&C stock? Down the road when money or time is more in your favor you could add some nice wood, polishing, engraving or whatever you think a custom rifle should be. If I was in the market now that's the way I'd go. Terry

Your original question was 'what's fact and what's opinion?'. The simple answer is most of this is opinion. If all Rugers were the same, and all Winchesters were the same, then maybe we'd have more facts. If you took a dozen model 70s out and shot them all, not only would you have a sore shoulder, but you would also have a fair amount of variability in accuracy of individual rifles. A couple might have some other sort of problem here or there. That is the basis of a lot of opinions. The best CZ will likely outshoot an 'average' Ruger, but a good Ruger will outshoot a bad CZ. There is a lot of overlap. The good news is they are all good rifles so you can't go too far wrong deciding for yourself.

I must say this has been an education for me.

Folks talking about "what feels best", "shoot a dozen to see how they shoot", etc.

I judge how good an action is by how straight it is or is likely to be.

If the hole in the rings are oblong or the lugs don't fit the raceway or the corners are buffed off, or the tang screws are crooked, or the barrel threads aren't straight with the action, or any number of other parameters are WRONG, I could care less how it feels OR shoots. The action is junk and not worth spending a dime on.

And if the action is ugly?? It didn't make the first cut.

The statement below is profound.

quote:

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Originally posted by edi malinaric:
Hello Bobvthunter

When I was a young newly qualified engineer that knew everything, I was lucky enough to spend 5 years working under an old English Engineer. If I came across something "to good to be true" and waxed enthusiastic, he would puff away on his cigarette, wait quietly until I paused for breath, then blow out a smoke ring and ask "Who's doing the talking?"

It didn't take too long for me to realise that the end-users, who have nothing to gain, tend to give a more objective answer.

I notice that no-one has addressed the possibility that the gunshop might just make a better profit on the Ruger. They are, after all, in the business to run at a profit.

cheers edi

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I have known many types of gunsmiths and dealers. Many know more that we do about firearms and some don't. Some do thier task well and some don't. Some can shoot well and some don't even shoot! But all of them need money from the job.

So they have an agenda and I don't blame them as the job is their source of income. So you get advice to build on a "Mauser" when it will cost a fortune and all of the money goes into labor.

There is more than one right answer to the "best gun". But as Edi says above I trust the players and not the sellers but I listen to everyone.

On this and some other forums we have some real expert smiths and we are learing a lot from them. But many of us are qualified to select our own gun. Sometimes the reasons for us selecting a specific gun are valid for our own reasons.

I took the plunge!!!

I read everyone's posts, did some searches, and really tried to think about what would be best for ME, given the parameters that I layed out in the beginning. So, I've got a couple rifles on the way. When they get here I will try to post some pictures of them. I appreciate the input, whether I went with you suggestion or not.

I'm sure the anticipation won't kill anyone, but you'll have to wait until they get here to see what they are! I know I can't wait!

Thanks,
Bob

Well, I've had my new rifles for a couple weeks and still haven't had the time to take or post any pictures of them (or shoot them for that matter), but I ended up picking up two pre-64 M70s. A .30-06 and a .270. Neither is pristine, but they are both in good, original condition. The .30-06 had a pad added and the .270 has the rear sight missing, but I am happier than a pig in you know what with the condition and function of these rifles. The bolts operate very smoothly. I guess cast vs. forged manufacture makes a heck of a difference in that category. As I stated earlier, I plan to use them as is for a few years and then have them made into fine custom rifles. Anyway, thanks to everyone for the input. Whether I took your suggestion or not I took it all into consideration.

Thanks,
Bob