Have a 1909 barreled action that I'm sending to H&M to be nitrided and was told that through the nitride treatment process the metal/bolt on the finished barreled action will be much harder than the Tom Burgess method, any thoughts?

The Nitriding they do is like chrome plating (I don't mean it is chrome so no hate mail); will make the surface harder but is not a heat treat process, which you don't do to barrels anyway. It will make your bolt slide easier and it won't rust. A true recarburization process will infuse carbon into the steel and make the surface harder, for a deeper case depth. And leave the core soft. NOT for barrels.
Functionality concerns? I can't think of any.

While the coating itself is hard, the layer is very thin. And, the process involves enough heat that it can draw back the original case hardened layer. Not a good finish for a Mauser IMO.

You may get a very high surface hardness but it may be very thin and add nothing to the strength of the action. Sort of like a very thin layer of concrete over quicksand.

I didn't know it involved a lot of heat; if more than a couple hundred degrees, then I would not do it either, as stated above. Argentines are soft to begin with. Best to ask the vendor some specifics about it.

What kind of nitriding? There are several processes and they all vary. Inquire as mentioned to the temperature used in the process.

I have seen several rifles with PVD, TICN, etc types of coating and cringe wondering if anyone did there homework before hand. Many of those processes reach WELL above "safe" temperatures for a Mauser.

Take this however you want. My personal experience is it greatly increases barrel life. Several MFG use it on bolts. It is very slick. I have only used it on BR barrels.

Butch

I was the Armorer for the Army Reserve Shooting Team for over a decade so I do have quite a bit of experience with both processes.

As I am sure you know, most G.I. barrels are made from chrome molly steel which is more susceptible to corrosion than stainless steel. Chrome lining is used on G.I. bores both to extend their shooting life and to protect them from corrosion that can be a problem in battlefield conditions where maintenance is sometimes sporadic or insufficient. Chrome lining does a pretty good job of protecting battlefield weapons. One of the objections to chrome lining is that it is thought to decrease accuracy. This seems to be a valid criticism and is backed up by machine rest tests I have conducted of identical barrels (same manufacturer but half chrome lined and half not).

As you are aware most barrel "wear" is in the throat area. So eventually the hot gasses from the burning of the gunpowder will eat thru the chrome lining at the throat. It is rumored that at this point accuracy will plummet but I have not found that to be true. (Or if true, it is overstated or maybe only occurs for that short period when there is both chrome and bare steel in the throat simultaneously - just at the point of initial break thru.) Chrome lined barrels can continue to shoot well for thousands of rounds after the bare barrel steel at the back of the barrel (throat) has been exposed due to erosion of the chrome lining. Another criticism of chrome lining is that it can flake off later in the life of the barrel resulting in poor accuracy. Obviously, this could also cause maintenance problems if the user is depending on the chrome to ward off corrosion and thus is careless in his bore cleaning. If corrosion is allowed to occur pitting will result and that will ruin accuracy for sure.

Barrel pitting was one of the reasons I got involved in Salt Bath Nitriding. I was loosing nearly as many expensive match grade barrels to improper maintenance (causing pitting) as I was to wear out. This was under the relatively benign target shooting conditions. Obviously given the reputation of degraded accuracy, using chrome lining wasn't an option. So for the past couple of years I have been Salt Bath Nitriding all of my match barrels and haven't had a single one exhibit any pitting. During that 2 yr. period shooters have put anywhere from a few hundred rounds to thousands of rounds on said barrels. I don't know how long the coating will persist so at this point I am still evaluating it as a preservative. I don't know what will happen in another year or two when these barrels get more wear on them. Salt Bath Nitriding goes on both inside of the bore and on the outside surface. So, instead of 2 manufacturing steps you have combined them into one. Salt Bath Nitriding doesn't degrade accuracy one iota, unlike chrome lining. This was the first thing that I verified when I began using the process. I broke in a bunch of barrels and then machine rest tested them for group. I recorded and kept the targets, cleaned up the barrels, and sent them to MMi TruTec for the Isonite process. When they came back I reassembled them on the same receivers with the same torque settings, same bolt carrier assemblies, same flash suppressors, etc. Then they were retested with the same ammo lots. NO degradation in accuracy and about a 1% increase in muzzle velocity.

Chrome lined barrels seem to clean up rather easily after a range session. I found the ease of cleaning of Isonite coated barrels to be similar to chrome lined barrels. The Isonite barrels clean up the easiest of any non chrome lined barrels I have ever used. Isonite can be applied to either stainless or chrome molly but the factory needs to know what steel you are sending them because the application process varies a bit. Again, I only have about 2 yr. of cleaning experience with Salt Bath Nitrided barrels. I don't know if the ease of cleaning will continue as the barrels get more rounds on them. Generally speaking, most non coated barrels get harder to clean later in life. Although stainless has a reputation of being corrosion resistant it isn't corrosion proof (I have had plenty of them return pitted) so I coat both my C.M. and my SS barrels. The Isonite on the outside of the stainless barrels cuts reflection down so my shooters like it.

I mentioned flaking of chrome lining inside the bore. Joel Kendrick is my contact at MMi TruTec, the company in Arkansas that does my Salt Bath Nitriding (they call it Isonite). He was mentioning using the Salt Bath Nitriding inside the bore prior to chrome lining it to get a better adhesion. He is currently working with one of the military contractors (maybe F.N., but don't quote me on that) relative to this process. He has given me permission to give out his contact information so I have cc'd him in my reply to you. He can give you the specifics of any testing and evaluation that has been done relative to this process and can give you quotes, etc. should you just be interested in the Isonite by itself as I use it.

One last quick note on chrome lining. Such barrels have the reputation of changing point of impact when heated up. I have found this to be very true. It may be due to the way the different metals (chrome molly and chrome) expand inside the bore. What ever the reason, it does happen and, again, this was verified on a state of the art machine rest. Isonite doesn't exhibit this characteristic.

I am sure you are well aware of some of the things I covered. Lacking specific questions, I just sort of used a shotgun approach which ended up being fairly long. If I left anything unanswered please feel free to get back to me. I have enabled my Spam Blocker to allow your e-mails to come in with out the automated hate responses that Earth Link sends out. I am sure Joel would also be glad to clarify the technical aspects of the Salt Bath Nitriding process. So far I am very pleased with it.

Best of luck!
Carlos

Good info Butch. Although I am not a metallurgist, I have often dreamed of an ultimate barrel alloy; capable of withstanding any wear or flame front temperature.

Back in the early 1970's GM introduced a 4 cylinder gasoline engine cast of an alloy of aluminum and silicon. After casting and initial machining, the cylinder bores were acid etched to leave only the silicon as the riding surface for the piston rings. While accomplishing the goal of eliminating the need of cast iron inserts, the engine failed due to lack of rigidity and leaky cast iron cylinder head valve guides.

What if an alloy of steel with tungsten or silicon carbide were manufactured for barrels? The barrels could be hammer forged or even investment cast, then acid etched to expose a pure tungsten/silicon carbide bore surface with a melting point of 5,198 degrees F. No flame front could touch it, let alone be worn down from friction.

Bobster, I sure remembered the Vega.

Answered.