I know this is the wrong place, but I couldn't find anywhere it fits better. Please move or delete as necessary.

Good morning, Folks;

I'd like to give you some information and then ask for your opinion.

First, I manage a fairly small rifle and pistol range for our area. It's not a big deal really. Town population is about 20,000 plus the surrounding trade area. Our property is a triangle 250 yards by 330 yards on the sides. It's owned by the club. There is up to 200 yards for rifles.

Until now, anybody that was 21 and had $50 could join and get a key for the year. Shoot year round as long as the sun is up. The range is unattended except for some help on the weekends. It would take dues of at least $300 to keep an attendant and there are many hours during the day that no one is there to shoot.

This year, I changed that. Now to get a key, I am requiring members to sit through a one hour safety orientation by a NRA and Texas certified pistol instructor. The range has a few peculiarities that need to be known. Those are mentioned as well as range manners and safe gun handling. The class is free and given twice a week. Newbies are encouraged to contact any of several of us for help or instruction ... no strings attached.

Why? We have quite a few folks buying pistols (and a few rifles) who have never shot before and not only don't know how to operate the pistol, but have no knowledge of safe gun handling. There are at least 200 holes in the roof over the pistol area. Several times, I have found varying sized puddles and smears of blood in the pistol area. The rifle part of the line is to the left of the pistol area ... exactly where a right handed person would likely point their pistol while they fool with it.

That's the information: Here is my request for opinion.

The vast majority of folks have been at least tolerant and most are appreciative. There a few of the mossy backed asses who are pitching a bitch. One in particular (for example) says that he is a 38 year police veteran and was a marine and he doesn't need any safety training. Probably true. But isn't the main idea of safety training to help keep someone from shooting SOMEONE ELSE? We could be only one serious accident away from closing.

I know a lot of the members and most DON'T need the orientation. But of the others, I can't point to who needs it and who doesn't. What's wrong with some taking a review and the others learning something that could save a life and/or a life time of guilt?

I want to run the range so everyone can have a safe place to shoot, but I am tempted to turn the bank account over to someone else and say to hell with it.

Your opinion, please.

Y'all be good.

horsefly

I think it is a good idea. What can it hurt.

I've found that those who think they know everything usually don't

Most shooting clubs around me also require you to donate some time each year. Ranch manager, labor etc.

I think that it's a great idea and a necessary one.

Some of the worst gun handling I've ever seen was by police officers and other "professionals" who claim years of experience and have gotten complacent (lazy) over the years. I'm not cop bashing as my daughter, nephew and other family members are cops.

I'm ex-military and have been a competitive rifle and pistol shooter for over 35 years and I take advantage of every safety training opportunity that comes my way.

The range that I belong to requires you to be an NRA member and take an orientation/safety course before using the facilities. I think it is a great plan and one thing they made clear was that no matter how long you had been a member, it gave you no rights or priviliges over the newest member when it came to safety. I worked in a large refinery for 37 years and every day, we started out with a safety meeting and had a plant-wide meeting once a month. You are never too old/experienced, whatever, to refresh on safety training, and those that object are free to find another place to shoot! Just my 2 cents.

P.S: Tell old know it all that he is elected to teach the safety class since he has so much experience!

I agree with lee440. NEVER play or give in to anyone that wants to lower any safety standard. Tell the old fart that there are obviously more places for him to shoot. Just tell him "BYE" if he doesn't like it. As range officer, it could fall back on you, depending on the user contract, if someone gets hurt if you back down now.

Tell them everyone has to do it, or leave the club. No excuses. If the board or whatever the controlling entity is won't back you, then hand them the keys and tell them, you'll just be a member, thank you.

It's been my experience repeated in various ways at various times, that any "volunteer" club has a very few members who are dedicated to the club's goals and do at least 90% of the work. Unless the club can afford to pay help, that's just the way it is. Many times the club doesn't realize they have a problem until one of the main "gears" quits or dies.

.
I have the same problem (sort of) here every day at work. To book in a gun means that I am technically borrowing that persons firearm for however long the repair takes. For the exchange to take place I have to see the customers PAL (Possession Acquisition License) and I have to display my Business license where he can see it to verify that I am legal to take possession of it. No photo copies, no IPhone photos, no phone calls from his wife with the number. It must be the original document, in my hand. You wouldn't think that it would be a big deal and you have to carry the document when you run around with your gun or face a fine and possible jail time. Yet every day I have to tell people to bring back their gun WITH their PAL before I can book it in. The number of people who refuse to get the permit or don't carry it is maddening. But they are to old, to smart and to god damned lazy to take the course once and get the fool thing. It costs me a lot of money in lost work but there is really nothing I can do with it outside of bitch and complain. Unfortunately, that doesn't help either!

I D I O T S !

quote:

Originally posted by horsefly1:
There a few of the mossy backed asses who are pitching a bitch. One in particular (for example) says that he is a 38 year police veteran and was a marine and he doesn't need any safety training.
horsefly

Tell people like that that since they are so well informed that you know they will be able to appreciate the importance of insisting on safe weapon handling on your range. And frankly, anyone who bocks at saftey training could probably stand a little humility. I am all for it!

Our range requires one safety briefing (a 2 hour class), and NRA membership. Period. Of you do not get the combination to the gate lock. Which changes every year.

our club went through similar things when our new range was built. #1 - the training was required by insurance. #2 - it helped a bit with things getting shot up. Yes we had the guys bitch, but when they were told that it was either that or find someplace else - they took the class. Now we even require it yearly. #3 - a sign in sheet is required.- this way if anything gets shot up in the area and they want to blame the range, the authorities will look at the list, find out the guns being used and can compare. Similar thing happened at another range when they blamed the range for holes in their pole shed. at the time the cops were using the range firing 40's and the holes were 22's - ended up they did it themselves in an effort to cause problems
#4 - we now use an electric gate (about 3000) with a electric eye that reads the members ID and opens/closes the gate and records who was there and when. That has helped greatly with range damage
ranges all over are under fire and in danger of being closed. Shooters mostly know this and will comp;ly to have a place to shoot

I joined a local R&GC in 1978 when I moved here. It had a nice outdoor 600 yard range and a High Power program. A couple years ago I noticed several roofs above the back stop hill.
Then the range shut down member use of the range past 200yds and built offset impact berms. They also started mandatory safety classes each year when you renewed membership and tripled the yearly dues.

I was talking with a fellow member who is an attorney, and he told me he was resigning his membership and getting a letter from the board saying they accepted it. Reason: every spring a new developer would take a 90-day lease with option to buy, of the acreage to our west. The next week they would file a request with P&Z to shut the range down as a health hazard, so they could build expensive houses. The only thing that has saved the club is that they have a charter signed by FDR in 1937 as a DCM Training Range. But, every spring, this scenario repeats itself.

My friend said if someone took a stray bullet, the Club would be sued. Then the board members, and then the general membership. So, I bailed out the next January. I drive about ten miles farther, and I have a choice of two ranges with 1000yd lines and no neighbors.

All of the above absolutely. I'll get verbally lashed for saying this. But, I still think everyone who purchases a pistol should be required to take a state sanctioned handgun safety course for a nominal fee. With the increasing popularity of handguns these days, it's time to do something. Hunters' safety courses that are required in some states to get a Junior hunting license are great, yet are not enough. Many pistol shooters are not hunters.
I rarely use public ranges anymore. I can't tell you how many fools pointed their barrel directly at someone at the range. That's the first rule of safety yet some don't even know that. Safety on or not.
Great post.

quote:

But, I still think everyone who purchases a pistol should be required to take a state sanctioned handgun safety course for a nominal fee. With the increasing popularity of handguns these days, it's time to do something. Hunters' safety courses that are required in some states to get a Junior hunting license are great, yet are not enough. Many pistol shooters are not hunters.

I agree with those above.

However, I have a suggestion. For previous members, like your old police veteran, why not offer them the option of demonstrating range and safety proficiency, a proficiency test, as opposed to taking your safety class? It could be done informally and better adapted to their schedules.

While I don't disagree with the sentiment, Custombolt's would, of course, violate my RIGHT to keep and bear arms. It does not say, unless you don't pass the arbitrary state decided safety course. And the NRA does not qualify as a government entity, even though they think they should be.

Back to the original subject, my range has gone to some of the same measures as above with electronic key cards and double video to make sure who is using the range and who is sneaking in behind them.

I modified to state Custombolt's suggestion requiring training for ownership. You posted too fast in between mine.

State approved might have been a better choice of words on my part Larry. The NRA sounds like the best way to go.

Double ditto on all the above. Been there, done that. Was Secty at club in NH with 800+ members.
Orientation and training required...period. Same issues with the "stray bullet" problem.

Safety First. Finito! Doesn't matter who. We had local cops, NH State police and FBI use the range. Members all, and all went through orientation. Period!

what Gato said-
FYI-
I have been assisting a Tx Rep who has been getting pounded by our younger veterans that do not want to take a CHL class.
It is " offensive" to them after serving in "combat"

He brought me in to discuss it with them-
they got an earful -
I discussed with them in my "kind fatherly tone"-

As a US Naval Aviator I still had to qualify under civilian license requirement AFTER I got out-
As a physician, I have to QUALIFY for each state I practiced in-
As an NRA instructor (and other instructor ratings) I had to qualify for a CHL (LTC)-

They quit bitching--

Same should go for anyone on the Range-
comply or exit -
with boot to ass if needed

Maybe call it something different than "safety" training? While a review of safe gun handling procedures should be part of it, the particular features of the range would be important to cover as well. Maybe just call it "orientation" or "get to know your range" ?

Your house, your rules. (Anyone who thinks they are too safe has forgotten their goof-ups and that anyone can have a bad day / brain fart.)

Good morning, Folks;

Thank you ... all of you ... for your comments. You responded better than I had hoped and gave me some good ideas and good support.

This is an uphill battle and I've had several arguments with the "old guys". That's what started this thread. We've done this for thirty five by God years and we ain't dead yet. There's always tomorrow. And if "they" can't get in, somebody'll shoot it up from the road.

Yet out of 500 members we would be lucky to get ten to a meeting. I (club) pay for everything. It's not worth it to try to get volunteers. This is a new year and already over 100 have come to our meeting. It's the newbies that aren't bitching!

"The old guys" are PO'd because it's their range and it's been this way forever. BUT NOBODY WILL TAKE IT BACK.

I'm running it more or less by default (nobody else would) and I'm trying to do something good for the local shooting community. This morning, I offered one of the old guys (a respected friend) the bank account ($five digits)and all my records and let him build the &(%^ new pistol range. Or not. I've saved money for three years to have enough.

I guess I'm just blowing off steam, but it's going to be the way I said or someone else can do the job and take the crap. Anybody want to move to Texas and run a range?

Y'all be good. (please)

horsefly

I'm in Texas and the answer is not "No", but "Hell, No!"

I served my time as a President and Board member for many years at a fairly large gun club. Very rarely did anyone say "Good work/job.", all you heard were complaints or silence. Best non-paying job I don't have anymore.

Where are you located?

It sounds like you're not getting any club member support. It also sounds like to me that I'd let them have your job.

Good morning Mr. Fat Cat;

The support I'm getting is from the new folks as well as a lot of the longer term members. It's just a few and I just had an argument on the phone with one of the "old guys". As I mentioned ... a respected friend.

What I don't understand is bitching and moaning behind my back. My name and number is all over the place. Want something? Got something to say? Say it!

Actually, I do get some thank you's and appreciation. I'll say it again: mostly from the new guys. It's some of the long termers that are being insulted.

We have another safety class this afternoon and I have a lot of questions to ask the folks. After all, I consider myself to be their employee. With damned poor pay!

This range is in Brownwood. There are five Brown somethings in Texas. This one is in the center of the state.

It's a 200 yd range where you can shoot as long as the sun is up for fifty dollars a year. I don't think one hour of someone's time to get a review on safety is too much to ask. Maybe I should call it a "don't shoot your neighbor meeting."

Again ... thanks for everyone's comments.

Y'all be good.

horsefly

Stick to your guns! No pun intended.

Rich,
You can still shoot 600yds there and the safety classes are for new members.

The dues are high but include a key to the range.

Let me know if you want to visit your old stomping grounds and view the changes.

shane

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I joined a local R&GC in 1978 when I moved here. It had a nice outdoor 600 yard range and a High Power program. A couple years ago I noticed several roofs above the back stop hill.
Then the range shut down member use of the range past 200yds and built offset impact berms. They also started mandatory safety classes each year when you renewed membership and tripled the yearly dues.

I was talking with a fellow member who is an attorney, and he told me he was resigning his membership and getting a letter from the board saying they accepted it. Reason: every spring a new developer would take a 90-day lease with option to buy, of the acreage to our west. The next week they would file a request with P&Z to shut the range down as a health hazard, so they could build expensive houses. The only thing that has saved the club is that they have a charter signed by FDR in 1937 as a DCM Training Range. But, every spring, this scenario repeats itself.

My friend said if someone took a stray bullet, the Club would be sued. Then the board members, and then the general membership. So, I bailed out the next January. I drive about ten miles farther, and I have a choice of two ranges with 1000yd lines and no neighbors.

Horsefly 1,

Good day to you just a little imput as to how things are here now in South Africa.

Everyone whom wishes to have a legal firearm are required by law to first do the nesscary training with an accredited training provider, thereafter once passed one has to visit the nearest police station and apply for a competancy certificate (fingerprints and record checks) which could take upto six(6) months.

Once obtained one can purchase a firearm and apply for licence +- 90 days.

yip its a long process but it actually does have its merits i.e. One does feel better knowing that least everyone that leaglly has a firearm is trained and aware of the laws, that does'nt mean everyones perfect but I'm sure you will understand what I mean.

I'm posting a few pictures from manuals everyone is required to complete.OKAY HOW DO i DO THAT?

In closing if your clients don't adhear to your standards them show them the door.

quote:

Originally posted by horsefly1:
That's the information: Here is my request for opinion.

The vast majority of folks have been at least tolerant and most are appreciative. There a few of the mossy backed asses who are pitching a bitch. One in particular (for example) says that he is a 38 year police veteran and was a marine and he doesn't need any safety training. Probably true. But isn't the main idea of safety training to help keep someone from shooting SOMEONE ELSE? We could be only one serious accident away from closing.

I know a lot of the members and most DON'T need the orientation. But of the others, I can't point to who needs it and who doesn't. What's wrong with some taking a review and the others learning something that could save a life and/or a life time of guilt?

I want to run the range so everyone can have a safe place to shoot, but I am tempted to turn the bank account over to someone else and say to hell with it.

Your opinion, please.

horsefly

YES, it's a good idea! I was President of a large club in SE Pa. over (3000 members at the time, now over 5,500) and a safety orientation IS a good idea. It is mandatory now for our club, as well as a minimal background check. orientation takes about 3 hours and involves visiting each range and reviewing the rules for each.

You should talk with your Insurance Carrier and see what they have to say about it. Also your club's legal council. And then present that info to the membership for approval.

Once your insurance carrier and Legalman have chimed in, bubba, the ex cop or ex-general or whatever, shouldn't have much to say..

Good luck.


Oh yeah, and if your NOT insured... WASH YOUR HANDS OF IT ASAP AND TURN IN YOUR MEMBERSHIP CARD. Because one accident, and guess who will be on the list of defendants?

I would not exempt anyone from the safety training, except possibly the trainer.

If it were my place the annual cost would be $XX, but if you are an NRA member, it would be $XX minus $20 or so. Or somehow charge the non NRA members more.

I am the president of our gun club here. We do require a rules and safety orientation for call members, and then a quiz on the rules every year for renewal.

We did lose some members when the orientation requirement was instated for existing members, but I believe we are better off without them.

Stick to your guns! Training and continuing ed will count for a lot when and if there is ever an incident.

I know exactly what you mean about the workload and the pay..............

.

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:
.
I have the same problem (sort of) here every day at work. To book in a gun means that I am technically borrowing that persons firearm for however long the repair takes. For the exchange to take place I have to see the customers PAL (Possession Acquisition License) and I have to display my Business license where he can see it to verify that I am legal to take possession of it. No photo copies, no IPhone photos, no phone calls from his wife with the number. It must be the original document, in my hand. You wouldn't think that it would be a big deal and you have to carry the document when you run around with your gun or face a fine and possible jail time. Yet every day I have to tell people to bring back their gun WITH their PAL before I can book it in. The number of people who refuse to get the permit or don't carry it is maddening. But they are to old, to smart and to god damned lazy to take the course once and get the fool thing. It costs me a lot of money in lost work but there is really nothing I can do with it outside of bitch and complain. Unfortunately, that doesn't help either!

I D I O T S !

Rod,
I would think your own PAL would allow you to take possession of a firearm. However, you would, theoretically, have to see their PAL in order to return it. With a valid Possession and acquisition License, I can be in possession of any non-restricted rifle. If the owner does not have a license, I can take possession but I can't, legally, give it back. Regards, Bill.

Yeah, that's that grey area, amnesty disposal thingy Billy. If you have a non-restricted firearm, but no PAL, you can legally give or sell it to an individual with a PAL or firearms business license or even give it to the cops with no legal repercussions as long as your purpose is the legal disposal of the firearm. But like you said you can't take it back without first getting a PAL.

That's all well and fine, but I pay the rent by giving the gun back! LOL