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I have a Rem 700 SPS chambered in 308. The closest I can get a bullet to the lands is .150" and still have the cartridge fit the magazine. I need to get the bullets closer to the lands. Does anybody know how many turns I can take off the back of the barrel and still have sufficient metal to rechamber the barrel? Yes, I'll take it to a gunsmith, but need to know if it's worth the time and effort. Sneak close, aim small, hit hard! ** NRA Lifetime Member ** | ||
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Rem 700 threads are 16 TPI so 3 threads set back would allow a new chamber with custom length throat. There is enough barrel to do that. Is it worth it? Probably not but you won't know unless you try. John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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If I was going to pull the barrel I'd replace it with one of the after market barrels. You can rest assured that it will shoot great and have the throat you wanted. Then you can get the twist, length, contour, etc you really need. God Bless, Louis | |||
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No you don't. They make the throat that long to show they tried to prevent you from doing something foolish. | |||
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The 308Win standard chamber is cut with that much free-bore in every off the shelf rifle I have messed with. The one I have now is a Browning A-boltII and with the huge bullet jump it will shoot sub .25" groups. The only complaint I have with the performance is low velocity with this load; 2425 ft/sec with 165 grain Speer BTSP. Every attempt I have made to speed it up is at a drastic loss of accuracy. BTW, I have a model 600 Remington chambered in 6mmRem that has about the same bullet jump as my 308, and though not as accurate as the 308W will shot 5/8" groups. I don't believe a long bullet jump makes a rifle less accurate but I do think it makes them finicky to load for. Dennis Life member NRA | |||
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I've had good luck using LEE Factory Crimp Dies along with their Collet dies to give me consistent initial pressure curves. That's what you are achieving by seating bullets just shy of the lands. There is no reason a long throat of proper dimensions should not allow excellent accuracy. What matters is that the bullet contacts the lands evenly around it's circumference and the pressure curve is consistent. | |||
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Or you could have the magbox lengthened. If the throat is worn out, shot out, the set back barrel would be the option. Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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In a perfect world, you would assemble a dummy round with the bullet of your choice seated where it needs to be, and take that, and your rifle, to your gunsmith and let him worry about it. It should easily fit within the factory short action box making the job a simple and calculated set back. Which BTW, can result in some pretty good improvements. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Assuming your using good loads, put together straight etc. you might try accurizing, selling, or trading the rifle for another SPS in 308. The 308 is an accurate round period! You don't need to kiss the lands to get well under half MOA accuracy. Most likely there are other problems going on than having a NORMAL length throat. Is your fire-formed brass concentric? Do you have more than .002" bullet runout? (.001 or less is even better if possible. I like Wilson neck and bullet seating dies used with an arbor press.) Have you bedded the rifle? Free floated the barrel? Some times none of these is necessary sometimes all of them are. Can you tell us what you have done in any of these areas, and can you tell us in detail what loads you have tried. What accuracy are getting now? I would make sure you've addressed all of these areas before you set back your barrel. Good luck. The 308 is awesome.  Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Thanks for all the input. I've fired over 200 rounds now with various bullet, primer, powder combinations but the best, repeatable groups are only 1-1/2 moa. I'd like it at 1 moa or better. The chamber and neck on this rifle are very loose. By rechambering, I hope to remove that issue as well. I have thought about selling it and getting another rifle, but thought I'd check into this first. I really like the 308, but would prefer it be an accurate 308 Tailgunner - As they say, when all else fails, try something new. The freebore isn't helping with the accuracy and is the only thing out of my control now. I need to start controlling that variable. Westpac - Yes, that is what I was planning to do. I learned about the dummy round from a very good gunsmith. The SPS is nice rifle, but not a "great" rifle. I need to decide if it's worth modifying or just sell it and go for another rifle. I do like to check out my options before I come to see you.  Sneak close, aim small, hit hard! ** NRA Lifetime Member ** | |||
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I have the same rifle and the same issues. PITA! I have a couple of Savages that will load to the lands and fit the box.....why can't remmy do this? You got me. If I was gonna go to all the trouble of setting back I would screw on a new Krieger, Hart or something other than the factory tube. Mine will shoot into an inch with "Box Lenght" loads, plenty and then some, good for hunting. But when I stick 'em out there and single load....it gets mucho better. . | |||
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Tailgunner, please enlighten me: how is pushing a projectile up close to the lands being "foolish", as you called it? Have you read the Hornady explanation regarding seating a projectile close to the lands in their handloading manual, and seen the difference in accuracy? I, for one, know full well that seating close helps accuracy, at least in my rifles. And 1-1/2 MOA from a .308 is plenty of reason to do what the OP asked about doing, as far as I am concerned. | |||
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Long throats are fine provide the throat diameter is tight enough to guide the bullet straight into the bore. Factory throats are relatively loose, almost begging for the bullet to be seated near the lands to reduce any chance for the bullet to hop, skip and jump to the bore, which does nothing for accuracy. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Does your SPS have the HS Precision stock? Has the recoil lug been glass bedded? Has the crown been recut? How's the trigger been set up? These are the first things I check with new Remington 700 rifles. The last one I did puts 5 shots into one hole at 100 yards using Federal Gold Medal Match factory ammo. John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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 Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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At the time I posted, the OP had said nothing about what he had tried. Even now, with only "a couple hundred rounds" down the barrel, he hasn't exhausted the combo's to try first. 3 rounds ea, at 10 increments with the same bullet/powder, with 5 round repeats at those that show the most promise, means he hasn't properly tested either 1 bullet or powder yet. Do the math, 4 bullet makers, 2-3 styles each, in 4 different weights, times 10 powders/bullet, times 30 (minimum) rounds per combo is a whole lot more than 200ish, more like 1000 rounds. And that's not getting into all the rifle tuning that may need to take place. As far as hornyday's "testing", you can force any result you pre-determined you're going to get. I won't deny that varying the OAL doesn't make a difference, but it's a final tuning step, not a first thing to try. Now, since he has mentioned possible chamber issues, setting the barrel back may be of benefit IF the rest of the barrel is worth saving. Foolish? Sure, jam that bullet into the lands (per the internet experts), and see what the pressures do (esp when you follow the IE load advise also). IOW it's not an area you want to dive into without a lot more "bench time" than it sounds like the OP has | |||
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A couple of vary basic suggestions to try. 1. Buy a box of Federal Gold Metal Match ammo and see how it does. 2. Get some 168 gr Barnes TSXs, load 44.5 gr of Varget ahead of a CCI 250 in Lapua brass, OAL 2.005". Barnes bullets REQUIRE a jump to work right. While I like 721/2s far more than 700s, they are decent rifles and will usually shoot. If it won't, no matter what, sell it and buy a Tikka ..... they always work. | |||
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I had a similar rifle that did similar things. The chamber was slightly oblong, and its center line was not coincident with the barrels center line. Not coincident at all. Just for fun, I did the LBT lead bore lap sequence. Then I paid a gunsmith to set the barrel back four threads (yes, the chamber was that screwed up) and rechamber with a 1995 Palma reamer. My first post-operative load was 168 SMK, Fed 210-M primers, FGM brass (no longer available, I am sorry to say) and 45.5-grains of Varget at 2.815 COL. The first four, 5-shot groups were small and round. I used up all my FGM brass, and much of an eight pound caddy of that specific lot of Varget with same bullets, primers and COL. The big question/chance/gamble is, "Do I pay for work on this barrel, or do I have the action blue-printed (single point method only), and pop for $340.00 worth of a nice barrel. After the lapping, my barrel looked good under the bore scope, and it slugged out right on the nose for dimensions. I got lucky with my gamble. There is something seriously wrong with those groups. If a barrel is going top shoot, it will do so without trying the Manhattan phone book worth of load combinations.  | |||
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It's a sad story. have owned dozens of 721/2s and NEVER had one in any caliber that was not a sub MOA rifle as issued. The 700 stories we keep hearing do not give one a warm and fuzzy about Remington (and now Marlin). Especially when I have yet to see one of the cheaper Savage or Marlin bolt guns that shoot well. The Savages as issued the marlins do need to stocks stiffened up a bit. First 5 shots from a Marlin 270 after rebedding the action and stiffening up the fore end. (Less than 50 rounds through the gun at that time and barrel just cleaned)  | |||
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I would go buy a box of Federal National Match and have three different rifleman shoot it before I did anything... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Spent another day at the range. Posted a note on the wall and sold the gun the next day. Sometimes it just ain't worth the frustration ... Tailgunner: All of my guns shoot under 1 moa, most closer to 1/2 moa and every time. Within 200 rounds, you usually have a pretty good idea if the thing will shoot or not. This one will not. End of story. Lawndart: Right on! You should be able to figure it out "without trying the Manhattan phone book worth of load combinations"! Thanks for all the input folks. It's always good to get a few opinions. Sneak close, aim small, hit hard! ** NRA Lifetime Member ** | |||
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BUT the problem had more to do with a junk Rem barrel (entire gun?) than it had to do with getting the bullet close to the lands, didn't it?
Good, that means that the shooter is consistent, which reduces one of the 3 primary variables. That your reloading technique works on them reduces the probability of the second main variable, leaving the 3rd variable as the most likely cause IE: junk firearm | |||
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Admittedly, yes, it could be the barrel - but the chamber is part of the barrel! You would have to set it back and clean-up the chamber before you can claim it is the barrel. You can do some amazing corrections letting the round self-center by getting it close, if not into, the lands. Enjoy. Sneak close, aim small, hit hard! ** NRA Lifetime Member ** | |||
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Before I spent any money getting it set back I would load some rounds touching the lands and just load them straight into the chamber without using the magazine. Personally I would be reluctant to spend any money on an 1 1/2" barrel unless I new for sure that it would fix the problem. Try shooting some Federal or Black Hills Match ammo. They will shoot under an inch in any capable rifle no matter how much free-bore it has. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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