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deleted Macs B U.S. Army Retired Alles gut! | ||
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After all, it is where the muzzle is pointing that determines bullet path, not the chamber. Try a laser mounted at the muzzle, or better yet use the Leupold boresight device. John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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If you can induce recoil and spin to that beam of light you might get closer. The laser doesn't take into account barrel contact, bedding or trigger pull. Recheck your crown, square it to the bore. Use those machinist's eyes and check the throat for concentricity. You can actually see it. Well, most of the time. There is a lot of little things that interfere with bullet flight that doesn't affect a laser. I used my "Leupold" magnetic boresighter and took a rifle to the desert and the first 5 rounds were dead centered on the target. Of course I squared the action and fit the barrel. It''s got to be straight and concentric from the cocking piece through the crown if a chamber mounted laser boresighter is going to have a shot. Not always, but more times than not. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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I gotta say it, your time spent setting up your scope is crazy man. think about how long you spend on all that, you could just sight it at the range in less time. That said, I use an inexpensive collimator, recommended by my gunsmith years ago (though he had a fancy one and made his own inserts for the barrels). It works pretty well, the scopes I have done with it are always on the paper and require only a littel adjustment to get on target. I haven't tried the leupold tool but hear it works fantastic and would like to as it's easier than what I have. Red PS all mine are hunting rifles so I don't get into the lapping of rings and all the other stuff that may be necessary on target rifles. | |||
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Macs I had the same luck as you on the last two guns I bore sighted in. With the rifle on the bench, setting in sand bags. I remove the bolt, look through the bore and sight in on an target. Than I adjust the crosshairs to the center of the target. By checking back and forth a few time I usualy can get within 3"-4" of the bullseye. On the last two guns I was 8"-10" from the center of the target. Hal | |||
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The answer to the question is quite simple - rifles don't always shoot the direction they are pointing in the "resting" position. Once the bullet and expanding gasses begin their journey down the bore, they do crazy things to the barrel, and it may be pointing in a very different direction when the bullet exits the muzzle, compared to where it was pointing just a few milliseconds earlier  Use enough gun... Shoot 'till it's dead, especially if it bites. | |||
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2: X 2   rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Just get it on the paper............... There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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This doesn't surprize me in the least. My friend paid $35.00 to get his gun laser boresighted and it was 36 inches high @ 100 yards. I pulled his bolt out and eyeballed it to within an inch @ 100 yards. I recently bought a Bushnell boresighter with expandable pilot. It works dead on if using medium height rings. I used it on High rings yesterday and ran out of scope elevation adjustment. I pulled the bolt and turned the elevation 1-1/2 turns. Part of it is the height overbore as far as the various boresighters go. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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Just insert an empty case in chamber with no primer. Tape two crosshairs over the muzzle. Peep sight it and adjust scope. Voila! | |||
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That is a new one on me Bobster. I could see it as I was reading it. I usually just boresight at 25yds to start and go from there but that is a refinement I hadn't heard before. Von Gruff. | |||
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That's a little amuzing.  For years, I just looked through the bore, with the rifle on sandbags, then adjusted the scope to where the cross hairs were at the place I could see throught the bore. I had always assumed that max for this procedure was about 50 yds, just to get it on paper. Early sometime this summer, I went to the range, with a rifle with a freshly mounted scope, and forgot and set the target at 100 yds. Being lazy and all, and plenty of ammo, I tried the bore sighting the old fashioned way at 100 yds - eyeballing it through the bore - then adjusting the cross hairs to center. It worked, and in just a few shots, I had it sighted in. I figured that I couldn't do that again, and it was just luck, but I've done it at least three more times since then. Go figure. Oh well, less stuff to worry with. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I don't know...I just center the reticule veritcally and horizontally and mount the scope. I fire one shot at the 25 yard line and adjust to be dead on at 25 yards. I fire a second shot at 25 to make sure my adjustments were correct and re-adjust if necessary. I then move the target to 100 yards and fire my group. Usually takes about 3 groups to get impact where I want. I have never failed to be on the paper at 25 yards and I have never failed to be on the paper at 100 after making my adjustments at 25. Macs - were you hoping it would only take you two groups to zero and you would save three rounds? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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put me with "pull the bolt and look down the barrel" group... and i just bought 1 of the magnetic leupold boresighters... which works great on BAR"s and black rifles... go big or go home ........ DSC-- Life Member NRA--Life member DRSS--9.3x74 r Chapuis | |||
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Couldn't agree more. No-one would ever sight in using a laser, bore collimator, or just plain bore sighting by eye and then go out hunting for game, therefore what ever initial method is used you will be on the range. Why get complicated when the eye through a bore, just like using a peep sight, will centre the muzzle on paper which in 99% of the time will be close to the aiming point and only needing a little adjustment to finalise the process. Life can be easy!!!! | |||
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Dude, Put the barrels that do not shoot where they look in your engine lathe an look through the bores while they turn about 50 RPM. You will find some of them flop around inside like a jump rope. | |||
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+1 It is all about the Barrel Harmonic Node - which changes with different Loads. By the way, Macs B, if you ever try the Burris Signature Rings with the Eccentric Inserts, you will look at all the Ring Honing stuff and want to strangle someone. I also do not use any kind of Bore-Sighting Device. Just fire a shot at 25yds, adjust to center, and move on out. Might take 3-5 shots at the most. Best of luck to you. | |||
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You can do all the precision adjustments in a lab you want, but you cannot account for gravity, pressure (elevation) and temperature without going to the range. All three of these variables effect only the bullet in flight. None of them effect the laser beam - ever. Personally, like most of the replies above, I pull the bolt and bench sight it at 100 yards. I've never missed the paper with the first shot and I'm centered within 3-4 shots. Sneak close, aim small, hit hard! ** NRA Lifetime Member ** | |||
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I use an optical collimator. The one Leupold sells (or used to sell, as I bought mine years ago). It will get me on paper at 25 yards. Then I adjust to center. That will get me one or two groups away from where I want to be at 100 yards. As others have said, nothing can assure POI at 100 yards except firing bullets at paper at that range. But first, for safety's sake, use whatever collimator you choose, then start at 25 yards. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Just for grins I ran a test this weekend cause I had to mount two scopes. Bore sighted (as in looked through the bbl) in my garage on an object across the street 30 yards away. Didn't even bother to start at 25 yards like I usually do. Just set the target at 100 1st rifle was 1 3/4 right and 1 1/4 high 2nd rifle was 2 right and 1 1/2 high Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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 /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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+2 Outside of levers and semi-autos I really can't see any utility in a bore sighting device. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Bore sighting devices are popular because of convenience and speed of operation. Plus, as you say, with some rifles, pulling the bolt and looking down the bore is not possible. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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But they do! Every year about this time the boys start getting their old 742s and 336s out and remember they missed a deer last year...so into the shop they come wanting to get their rig boresighted so its “really dialed in good and tight”.  Try all you want, but some of them will never believe that bore sighting is the beginning of the sight in process, not the final step.  | |||
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I'm not trying to be cross, but regarding rifles that you can look down the bore I can't see how anything could be faster or more convenient than looking down the bore. The only difficult part of sighting down the bore is finding a way to hold the rifle steady. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Besides holding the rifle steady while adjusting the scope, you must set up a suitable target far enough away to aim it at. One can bore sight a rifle with an optical bore sighting device in a fraction of the time it takes to use the "look down the bore" method. But, as I have said, one must always fire the rifle at paper to verify. I start at 25 yards and finish at my preferred sight in range, which can vary from 50 to 200 yards. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Slick! That goes into into my third volume of "handy tips".  | |||
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