The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing M1909 Argy in 300 H&H...?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Solution found: a good friend read this, and offered me a P64 complete action that was originally either a 300 or 375H&H. I would like to thank all of you for posting, pro and con. I learned a few things. Rich | |||
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Anyone who has a subscription to the Double Gun Journal will know of Sherman Bell's series where he challenges myths of shotgun shell pressures and the strengths of old wall hangers and damascus barreled shotguns. It would be interesting for someone to sacrifice some mauser actions to high pressure cartridges and action modifications, and document it like he did. It was a very cool and informative series. Dave | |||
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you may find the Pre-64 somewhat restrictive when it comes to C.O.L, the newer M70 classic receiver is longer and better suited for the long magnums, but many folks remain content with a Pre-64. | |||
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P.O.Ackley did this back in the '50s and published his results in his Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders. Several Mausers and many others were tested to destruction, the Mausers failed miserably when compared to other miltary actions of similar design. Don't get me wrong, most were perfectly safe with any normal load, but under the overload conditions the weak sisters showed their true colors. Back in the day, I used to build hot-rods and race engines. I could bore ALMOST any Chevy small-block to 0.125" over without problems, and did it many times without hitting water. On race engines ONLY, no danger to humans. Would I do it for an engine that possibly would/could save a life, such as the engine in an ambulance? Don't be wilfully stupid. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I have both and have now had and used three original P-64s in .375H&H, four in .300H&H and four of the actions built into .375s. I very much prefer the original P-64s, as they came from the factory to the Classics and my purpose-built Grizzly defence rifle is on one, barreled with a take-off Classic sts tube, cut to 20". I prefer the one piece bolt and the one more round capacity in a slim rifle chambered .375H&H to later Mod. 70s and have had 43 P-64s rifles with never a problem in almost 43 years of hard use. Ralf Martini builds on 1909s and told me last month on the phone that he sends them out for re-treating and that is good enough for me. I had a Browning FN CRF .375H&H and have a .458WM plus a few other FNs. I did not like the feel of feeding the .375s in the FN action and do like it with the .458s and the .375s in the factory modded P-64s. I stick with 9.3x62, .30-06 and .308Normas in my various FNS and am totally happy with these. I also had a Dumoulin .243W. on an FN and would not go that route again, no real issues, just did not feel as nice, to me. | |||
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Ladies and Gentlemen: Mr. Steele wrote the following: "P.O.Ackley did this back in the '50s and published his results in his Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders. Several Mausers and many others were tested to destruction, the Mausers failed miserably when compared to other miltary actions of similar design. Don't get me wrong, most were perfectly safe with any normal load, but under the overload conditions the weak sisters showed their true colors." Now I find this curious, since here is the actual text from P. O. Ackley's "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders", Vol. II, page 14: "The Spandau Mauser action, which is probably typical of the World War I military models, stood about the same loads as our regular military actions, such as the Enfield or Springfield. The material is not as good as used in our own actions, but the design being better makes for better safety features. They have better gas protection than other actions, with the exception of the Japanese Arisaka. It can be concluded that the Model 98 Mauser action, the Springfield, Enfield, and Jap 6.5 are all suitable for high pressure, wildcat calibers when good judgment is used in handloading." Okay, how is P. O. Ackley's conclusion based upon Mr. Steele's assertion: "the Mausers failed miserably when compared to other miltary actions of similar design"? In my limited experience with two 1898 Mausers, where I built a 6.5-06 and a 7x57 AI, they worked perfectly even with full power hand loads, and neither had set back. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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As an addendum to the above, P. O. Ackley's book is exceptional, and describes on page 14, a Springfield action that let go: "It was one of the last actions made at the Springfield Arsenal. This was the only action tested, besides the Jap action, which had the oversized firing pin that would have injured the shooter's face. This particular Springfield action might have proven fatal had it been fired from the shoulder because of the fact that the cocking piece came flying back with a tremendous force." Springfield? Fatal? Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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Chris Thanks a million for posting quotes from the actual text. Nothing against J.D., as I have posted BS as fact due to my own faulty memory from time to time. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Originally posted by Dewey: .. I very much prefer the original P-64s, as they came from the factory to the Classics and my purpose-built Grizzly defence rifle is on one......I prefer the one piece bolt and the one more round capacity.. I prefer 308norma or 8x68s as a better fit option in pre64, for .300h&h i prefer the Classics xtra load length as apposed to P-64s one more down. remember PH Selbys' several successful decades using a 3-down .416, followed by a [3-down?]PF M70.458win as primary client backup rifle...and he was a Lefty shooting RH rigs to boot! Just goes to show that an adaptable man who is proficient with his rifle is what matters most. I did not like the feel of feeding the .375s in the FN action and do like it with the .458s and the .375s in the factory modded P-64s. I stick with 9.3x62, .30-06 and .308Normas in my various FNS and am totally happy with these.... The FN H&H feeding issue is something that Ralf could rectify,just like he does with 1909 argies, no? . ..Ralf Martini builds on 1909s and told me last month on the phone that he sends them out for re-treating and that is good enough for me... Me too. | |||
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We used to have a wonderful gentleman here on AR who did all of that and reported on it with regularity until the management kicked him off for some minor disagreements. He went by the name of Clark (and later Tnekkc). Perhaps a search of those names would bring up some of his test results. | |||
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Chris & Jason, I respectfully but firmly urge you both to go back and read the ENTIRE test. I did, and found that the typical failure load for non-Jap rimless rifles was 62 gr/3031 with the stronger ones going to 65-66 grs and the weaker ones failing at lesser amounts. Here's the 'Paul Harvey Rest of the Story'. At the 62-gr level, 2 out of 3 large-ring Mausers failed. One out of two US Enfields failed and only the low number 1903 failed. The single high-no 1903 passed, up to the highest level, but DID blow the striker out the back. One of the Mausers failed at quite a low pressure compared to the other actions. And 2 out of 3 Mausers were not nearly as strong as the high-no 1903 or the single good Mauser. So yes, when 2 out of 3 show weakness, I call that level of performance 'failing miserably'. And don't forget, these were UNMODIFIED Mausers! And further, how come you guys didn't also give Ackley's opinion about the Mauser when modified for the long H&H Magnums? Huh? How come you didn't give his VERY NEGATIVE opinion? Maybe you didn't get that far in the article, maybe you need to go back and read it again. You know, just so you can really recognize the BS when you hear it? Or write it.... Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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A test pool of 3 mausers is not a fair indication of mausers in general. Tom Burgess experienced a pool of some 400 argentines in regards to sampling Rockwell hardness and lug setback, even thats not truelly indicative of the variations in hardness & strength in M98 receivers. The Argentine 1909 was known to be softer than the German 1909, then theres the Brazilian 1908 & 1935, etc,etc... Even the commercial FN receiver has been know to be near dead soft or too hard from the factory. | |||
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This is British Columbia, a largely wilderness area where Grizzly encounters are a simple fact of life. Ralf, is a very recent addition to our citizenry and gunsmithing was essentially non-existent when I was working in the BC-Alberta wilderness, carrying guns. We used FACTORY rifles and I base my opinions on these under the conditions I used them in, as this is most realistic. I had a Brno 602, a Ruger MKII Magnum, among the first in Canada and then various P-64s and the Browning. I turned down the offer of a genuine Holland rifle and because I think that these are too costly when my old P-64-.375s worked so very well...and are so easy to maintain in the field. Ralf is now welding the bolt handle on my Classic sts in .338WM and one does not need any such mods on the P-64 .338s. I have had five of these and have four and used them for almost 43 years...and, nothing works better and few rifles as well. I think that Joe is making some damn good points here and any Mausers I ever build on in future WILL be re-treated....just because I am a cautious old geezer and like my face where it is. For the cost, I see this as simple common sense, but, each to his own. | |||
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we read about your experience in the same way we read about Harry Selby; a retired PH of similar years in the field, who spent his time actively persuing dangerous game and protecting clients as his major role, he was not waiting for a possible DG encounter whilst conducting other unrelated duties for his employer. Selby faced dealing with BigCats,Ele,Buff,Hypo,and he did so with a 3-down rifle. Dont you feel its reasonable to give credence to the vast experience he shares in the same way you expect people to give credence to your experience? | |||
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I said nothing about Harry Selby, I would never compare myself to him, that would be simply ludicrous. He is a legendary figure and deservedly so, I am just a retired BC guy with a fair amount of rifle/bush experience. I do not expect anyone to do anything, I simply state what I think and base it ONLY on what I have done and seen happen. That, to me, is the only honest and realistic manner one can use to post here or anywhere. Just an aside, on several occasions, I "protected" crews of dozens of students in Grizzly country and this was as a sole supervisor many miles from the nearest medical assistance. So, while, as I tried to make clear, my only experince is here, it also includes some "protection", so to speak. So, I prefer what I prefer and MY .308Norma is an FN in new condition that a budy recently gave me. It goes up to Ralf at the end of the month for a synthetic stock and a Dakota or LaPour safety. This is getting a little far from the original topic and I am not sure how it relates to heat treating Mausers. So, let's leave it there and not hijack this thread further. | |||
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Originally posted by Dewey: ..I said nothing about Harry Selby, I would never compare myself to him, that would be simply ludicrous. He is a legendary figure and deservedly so, I am just a retired BC guy with a fair amount of rifle/bush experience. The point is you babble on about the importance of 4-down in a pre64 for Grizz, I brought up that Harry made a living out of dealing with all manner of African DG with a 3-down rifle. I dont recall him babbling on about needing more. ..This is getting a little far from the original topic and I am not sure how it relates to heat treating Mausers. So, let's leave it there and not hijack this thread further. The thread is not originally about Heat treat of mausers. Its about 1909/.300H&H,then pre64 for 300H&H [ISS said his friend offered him one], thus we got onto the subject of load length and mag capacity. | |||
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Additional data, I believe the Ackley Handbooks are out of print now so some may want more detail. The Ackley tests that concern us consisted of 3 98 Mausers, 2 US Enfields and 2 1903 Springfields, all rebarreled to 270 Ackley Magnum. One Mauser was a commercial one and failed early, very early. The WW2 Mauser failed at the 62-gr level and the Spandau Mauser was among the strongest of them all. The Eddystone Enfield failed at the 62-gr level and the Remington Enfield was also among the strongest albeit also among the softest. The low-number 1903 failed at the 62-gr level but the high-number one was among the strongest. According to Ackley's actual test results, it would be logical to conclude that early commercial Mausers were comparatively very weak while US Eddystones, WW2 Mausers and low-number 1903 Springfields were all about the same strength level, with Remington Enfields, high-number 1903s and some certain Mausers even stronger. Admittedly, a very small sample, but also a very well-documented one. We know it's not quite that cut-&-dried but where's some other data? I haven't seen any Burgess data, where can we see it? BTW a little further along in the same volume is a good photo of a blown-up pre-64 M70 that came out on the losing end of a lawsuit. Obviously far too brittle. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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It would be logical to conclude that one receiver was weak, i dont draw any other conclusion than that. Reputable people have experienced FN receivers as being overly soft or overly hard. Some Pre64s are know to have dubious heatreat as well as atrocious machining and finish, its not sensible though to conclude that all pre64 are the same...The mauser deserves the same consideration. | |||
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Oh, I see, you DO know Mr. Selby, personally and have hunted with him and he TOLD you this, in person? You DO own and shoot the .308Norma and 8x68S rifles on Classic actions that you mention and did Ralf build these or was it another worldclass gunmaker? Your actual experience includes many Grizzly encounters here in BC and you ARE a regular client of Ralf's, of course? You have encountered Elephants, Buffalos and Hippos in addition to Lions on your African safaris and know what is best for them by actual field experience, probably many times, eh? Or, could you be posting what you have read in various magazines when ensconced in your lounger chair in some urban part of the USA.....seems odd that you post about rifles, etc, but, avoid answering my queries about owning and using them....... ...babble on..., you have done little else on this thread. | |||
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J.D. I didn't mean to say that you were guilty of posting "B.S.", only that your memory might have exagerated the outcome of Ackley's tests. As I said, I am the one guilty of posting B.S. due to my faulty memory.
Trax, if you're referring to Selby's 416, IIRC it held 4 down while he was using it. After it came back from its refirbishment at Rigby they had repalced the follower and it only held three down. I actually believe we made this discovery here on AR during a thread that included Mr. Selby. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Mr.Hagn hunting Grizz with his proprietary Single Shot.[.300weatherby I believe]  | |||
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Originally posted by Dewey: Oh, I see, you DO know Mr. Selby, personally and have hunted with him and he TOLD you this, in person? NO I have not. I also dont know you personally nor have I hunted with you. You DO own and shoot the .308Norma and 8x68S rifles on Classic actions that you mention and did Ralf build these or was it another worldclass gunmaker? Ive had CRF Classics in 22/250, 30/06,300win &338win, pre64 .250sav,.243,358win,7x57,30/06,.300h&h,375h&h,.458win. PushFeed M70 7x57 & .458win and 308Norma M98, FN .300h&h Your actual experience includes many Grizzly encounters here in BC and you ARE a regular client of Ralf's, of course? Grizz encounters in BC,none. My client status with Ralf,seeing your just a voice on the internet, remains strictly none of your business. You have encountered Elephants, Buffalos and Hippos in addition to Lions on your African safaris and know what is best for them by actual field experience, probably many times, eh? No I dont and neither do you. Selby entrusted both his and his clients lives to a 3-down PF-M70, do you have reason to doubt his judgement? quotes from Selby himself: "The .458 did me well enough" "I am not left handed... I do everything right handed except that I shoot from my left shoulder...maybe my left eye is the 'master eye'. Cycling the bolt was no big deal, I merely lowered the stock slightly, gripping the pistol grip with my left hand and with my right hand worked the bolt.... fast enough... in any case I prefer one or two precisely aimed shot to a fusilade of random rapid fire" Or, could you be posting what you have read in various magazines when ensconced in your lounger chair in some urban part of the USA.....seems odd that you post about rifles, etc, but, avoid answering my queries about owning and using them....... Reading articles by reputable experienced folk aint a bad thing. What makes what you write on AR more worthy or reputable? ...babble on..., you have done little else on this thread. your entitled to your opinion. | |||
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When you get to that point and with the various other mods required to make an Argy function well with the H&H rounds, my feeling is that there are less costly and perfectly functional options. I see no value in spending more than a given solution for a specific rifle needs to cost and re-doing old Mausers is pretty pricey. I would simply buy a Dakota action, have it slicked and tuned and go from there. I base this on, as always, actual longterm ownership and use of what I suggest here in BC and other remote Canadian hunting locales. Why make things more difficult than they need to be? Some aspects of life require learning in the field by doing, as well as gathering opinions from written material. | |||
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Actually if I was really into making custom Mausers for clients, I'd probably be combining 2 std 98s to make one Magnum length and one Kurz length. With the cost of a true magnum-length Mauser being well up into 4 figures and the Kurz not far behind, IMO it would be a very attractive proposition, depending. But apparently not, since I can't think of anyone who's doing it right now on a regular basis. A little SWAGging came up with a labor time of ~10 hrs per action without bottom metal work. This labor estimate of course would be AFTER making the necessary jigs & fixtures for rapid & repeatable results and assuming a competent TIGger. It's not rocket science, it's only basic welding fabrication and machine work. After a few iterations things smooth out and go a LOT faster. But apparently it's not remunerative enough, otherwise someone would be doing it and we'd all know about him already. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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Ladies and Gentlemen: As a further addendum to the Mauser issue, here's Parker O. Ackley's ideas about opening up an 1898 Mauser to use a 300 H&H length cartridge: "It would be best not to consider the shorter actions, such as the Model 98, for the excessively long cartridges, such as the H & H Magnums, etc. Such long cartridges require too much alteration of the action, which results in weakening the lower locking recess, thus cutting down the margin of safety." - Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders, Vol. II, page 14. The forgoing is Mr. Ackley's opinion about modifying the 1898 Mauser action to accept a 300 H&H length cartridge, but is not based on any imperical evidence. At least he has not presented any evidence in either volume of his two volume set. Mr. Duane Wiebe would be a better source, concerning the viability of modifying an 1898 Mauser action to the 300 H&H length cartridges. Also, Mr. Ackley said that the Mauser's steel ". . . is not as good as used in our own actions, . . . " Ibid, page 14. I disagree with that opinion, and have published and interpreted core assays of Mauser steels to prove it. So, in my opinion, Mr. Ackley was correct about some of his assessments, and not correct about others. You be the judge. Now, as further disclosure, I am a real disciple of his improved cartridges. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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I don't see why one would have to use two actions unless you really wanted to. What about precision surface grinding a piece of steel to the exact thickness that you wanted and weld it in, and then machine away what you don't need. That way you would get the exact same length of steel for both the receiver and the bolt. (Obviously for the bolt you'd first have to drill a hole for the firing pin to fit) How about it Steele? A little Pro Bono? I will donate an action. Let's see if it will work? | |||
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Using a 2nd action makes more sense than inserts. Difference being 4preps/2 welds (Vs) 8preps/4 welds for the bolt and receiver combined. plus the required extra machining of the inserts to shape. The less complicated the procedure and the less exposure to possible warpage, the better. . And you still got action parts to make a short version. IIRC, Ralf Martini quoted $1500 to join two std.m98 to make one long version.[all trued,finished,re-hardened], You still have to pay for the actions,new bolt handle,new bottom metal,trigger,3 pos. shroud,follower,new screws. The total cost [$3k?] seemed reasonable compared to a [$5.5k] H&W magnum receiver. With his high work ethic,one could be assured delivery of nothing less than an Ace grade final product. He did not appear keen, despite having done it more than once before. However,He did offer me a sensible suggestion (with grin); "why not avoid all the xtra fuss,weight & expense of a magnum length 375H&H, and just have built a nice lighter,handier 9,3 std.M98" | |||
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22WRF, I usually agree with you. I must however state I wish you guys never had kicked him out. He wound up on a number of other forums I frequent and proved himself not only to be an ass, but an incredibly stupid, self-praising, childish, ass. Phenominal discussion everyone... I look forward to reading it tomorrow instead of a quick skim. Nathaniel Myers Myers Arms LLC nathaniel@myersarms.com www.myersarms.com Follow us on Instagram and YouTube I buy Mauser actions, parts, micrometers, tools, calipers, etc. Specifically looking for pre-WWII Mauser tools. | |||
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Fal Grunt I need to change the subject just a bit to comment on your saying on the bottom of your posts. Thanks. It reminds me of way way back when I used to do Shore Patrol off the USS INDEPENDENCE over in the Mediterranean Sea. You would not believe some of the things that drunken sailors do besides spend their own money.  | |||
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 I believe it!  Back to our regularly scheduled programming... Nathaniel Myers Myers Arms LLC nathaniel@myersarms.com www.myersarms.com Follow us on Instagram and YouTube I buy Mauser actions, parts, micrometers, tools, calipers, etc. Specifically looking for pre-WWII Mauser tools. | |||
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Sir, how might one go about finding this information? Nathaniel Myers Myers Arms LLC nathaniel@myersarms.com www.myersarms.com Follow us on Instagram and YouTube I buy Mauser actions, parts, micrometers, tools, calipers, etc. Specifically looking for pre-WWII Mauser tools. | |||
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