Dirk, I think that is a mis representation of the picture. I noticed no ledge or lip or eyeball visible increase in diameter.

Unfortunately the case is boxed with the rifle and being shipped to my smith so further inspection/better pictures will have to wait.

Howard,
You may be correct. But the picture does look like the case did expand just in front of the head. It would typically do so in this area. It would be interesting to know if the lugs are set back and if so how much. I am glad there were no serious injuries. I would guess this was in the 90,000 psi range. I recently had a customer blow up a Rem 700 due to overloading. That one was much worse than this, but again luckily no one was hurt.

quote:

Dirk, I think that is a mis representation of the picture. I noticed no ledge or lip or eyeball visible increase in diameter.

Interesting. When I blow the picture up to 400% it shows a various obvious lip infront of the extractor groove.

Howard

Where did you get that ammo???

Do you know what powder, and how much and what bullet it was loaded with?

Just a thought. Did you check the lead - how far is the bullet off the lands?

If it is a steel jacketed bullet or even a Barned X - the pressures will get very high if the bullet is too close to the rifling. I have had such an experience in a 243W with Barnes bullets and safe (below max) powder charge but with bullet set out almost touching the rifling. The primer was blown out far worse than yours and the case head separated and the lettering on the head was emborsed on the bolt face! I wish I had some photos. No damage to the stock / Rem 700 rifle though.

In your case - The fact that there is no case head separation & the primer blow out is not as bad as it can be (brass letering is still visible on the case head) would suggest that the presures were not way over the top. The stock damage could also have been a case of the rifle moving in the wood after the initial crack & hence the chip at the tang.

It is definitely a case of dangerous pressure. What caused it is the real issue. JMHO.

If that pic is of your brass; the "belt" is obvious.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
If that pic is of your brass; the "belt" is obvious.

I can see what you are referring to in the pic. Will have to wait until I get the case back to inspect closer.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Howard

Do you know what powder, and how much and what bullet it was loaded with?

49 gr of 4320 w/150 gr bullet.

Not sure how close it was to the lands. With such a short bullet I don't see how the overall length could have been an issue.

quote:

49 gr of 4320 w/150 gr bullet

Something sure doesn't add up. A 150gr bullet and 49gr of 4320 is a 43,000psi load.

Just to join the choir, the belt is obvious and I am half blind anymore.

I am going to assume that the rounds were labeled 49 gns of 4320. I know you aren't supposed to try and identify powder by looks, but when you take them apart try to ID the powder and get us all good weights on the bullet and powder.

Wow, that was some HOT 4320. Grains of 4320 are easy to tell from other IMRs; the grains are .040--050 inch long and .030 thick. Look like short stubs instead of long sticks like other IMRs. Other IMR powders are double that length; even the ones next to it in burning rate like 4350, and 4064. 4895 is about .058 long.
And with 49 grains of 4320, you should be able to jam bullets into the rifling and not have that high of pressure.

If they check out all good there may be another issue. I am saying if you don't find anything out of whack powder/load wise in the rest, i.e. no blended loads, wrong powder, or wrong weights of charge or bullet.

There is something called right or wrong, "Cold Welding". I believe in this. I just can't believe how everyone's grandpa's old reloads cause so many problems. Cold Welding is the bullet and case oxidize together. I think this happens more often than not in the case of old reloads. I load a small amount and have the rest prepped and ready to avoid this. I have a few friends who do this as well.

Something to consider. I truly believe in it, but am not sure exactly what causes it.

ETA: You hear and read a lot of over-pressure type incidents with grandpa's old reloads. I can't believe that everyone's grandfather over loaded their shells. If it isn't cold welding, is it possibly powder degradation?

Rifle is fine. Been checked out properly and no damage.

Having a new stock made by a buddy.

I will get the case back and attempt better pictures and a closer inspection.

I will order a bullet puller today and see what I discover.

Thank you for all the helpful suggestions etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
Funny one I must admit!!

" Any chance Ruger would warranty the stock?"

I agree with you Boss Hoss!

Perhaps Howard has an overload of hubris from thinking that Ruger must replace a damaged rifle that Howard ruined by his own error!

He shot loads in it and he still does not know whats in them!!

If I were the gunsmith he sent it to I would keep the rifle and never return it or any gun to Howard.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

I will order a bullet puller today and see what I discover.

If you just want to find out what is inside one of the cartridges just grab the bullet with a pair of vice grips and bend it a couple of times and the bullet will come right out.

You can actually get the bullet out by putting side pressure on the bullet(bullet place against something solid) while holding the case in your hand.

I'm pleased that you have had the rifle properly checked out. I'm not sure what that means, so I'll take it that it was "properly" done. This is also important if you ever intend to sel lthat rifle as you'd want to avoid any possible damage to others or liability.

Of course you should also be concerned about yourself. I think you need to check out the rifle and the ammo. I assume that your examination included checking the headspace, so check the headspace on the ammo, measure the jump to the lands. Pull a whole bunch and weigh the charges (maybe this was one overcharge or a heavier bullet). Also look at the powder - does it look right and smell right.

I've heard (never from anyone directly) that driving around with your ammo in the glove box of a truck for years can result in the retardent being removed by the abrasion from the shaking and that you then get a faster burn rate. Ther are all sorts of possibilities, but try to find the problem before shooting the rifle. Again I've heard (all these secondhand stories) of bullets and brass "welding" in some cases. All of these could increase pressure.

Bear in mind that the dimensions of the rifle are one of those factors too. I'd want to have a good look at everything before even shooting factory ammo in it.

Just to be sure.

If it were my situation I would break down all the unknown ammo, discard the powder and shoot only my own loads or factory loads in that and all other rifles. (I wouldn't actually discard it I would put it in a pile and light it on fire, me and my kids like that!)
I never shoot someone elses reloads ever.
Hopefully Howard learns a lesson about never shooting others reloads and quits that behaviour, it should be a lesson to others as well.
Just because the "unknown loader" labeled it 4320 or whatever doesn't mean a random mistake or two or 5 mistakes weren't made along the way, (introduction of other powders on the bench, a different bullet weight during the seating process or a multitude of other problems). I would never let anyone shoot ammo loaded by unknown reloaders.
Just my opinion.

If I was to venture a guess, the cartridge in question was supposed to have 49grs of powder, however there is no way to know now that it is fired. Static electricity in the powder measure might have dropped one with a partial charge and the next with TOO much powder. About 20 years ago there was some issues with 4320 powder and there was none to be found for a while. It was used alot in the 17 Rem back then.
I would thank God that Ruger has a strong action and a good gas relief system, pull the bullets, dump the powder and salvage the brass.

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
If they check out all good there may be another issue. I am saying if you don't find anything out of whack powder/load wise in the rest, i.e. no blended loads, wrong powder, or wrong weights of charge or bullet.

There is something called right or wrong, "Cold Welding". I believe in this. I just can't believe how everyone's grandpa's old reloads cause so many problems. Cold Welding is the bullet and case oxidize together. I think this happens more often than not in the case of old reloads. I load a small amount and have the rest prepped and ready to avoid this. I have a few friends who do this as well.

Something to consider. I truly believe in it, but am not sure exactly what causes it.

ETA: You hear and read a lot of over-pressure type incidents with grandpa's old reloads. I can't believe that everyone's grandfather over loaded their shells. If it isn't cold welding, is it possibly powder degradation?

I agree with airgun 1 here from personal experience. I received some loaded rounds when I purchased a Brno ZKK in 6.5-06. They were not grandpa's reloads as they had an under maximum recommended charge of AR2213SC powder and a Hornady 140gr A-Max projectile but the cases did exhibit some mottling on the brass where it looked like they had been cleaned up, although being made from 30-06 brass it could have been just some older brass that had become a bit discoloured. The previous owner had said that some of the brass had been loaded a few times and I should fire-form up some new brass. Anyway on firing some rounds the primers were extremely flat, showing all signs of high pressure although the bolt was easy to open and brass ejected fine, one or two of the empties did show signs of incipient head separation.

Of course I checked seating depth of the A-Maxs in relation to the lands and neck clearance of the 30-06 cases in the chamber and all absolutely fine.

I decided to pull the projectiles, saving the powder and reloading the components back into some new brass. My RCBS collet puller would not move the A-Max projectiles and I could not even start the projectiles moving by seating them deeper in the bullet seater die. Only with a huge effort and strain on my press could I pull the projectiles using side cutter pliers to grip the bullets, some I ended up cutting in half with the pressure I had to exert on the pliers to hold the bullets.

For all intents and purposes the Hornady projectiles were welded in the case mouth. New cases, Sierra projectiles and a slightly higher charge of the same powder and everything is normal. I always use graphite in the case mouth as a lube when resizing and do not clean it out and in all my years of reloading have never experienced 'bullet welding'. Often enough I will decide to pull projectiles when I change my mind on loads or want to try something different. Maybe some case lubes can induce bullet welding in the case neck?

Could very well be the case here. Pulled 3 bullets. Each took numerous wacks with the bullet puller.

No inconsistency in powder charge. Plus with 30-06 and 150 gr bullet is it even possible to stuff in enough 4320 to have an over charge

quote:

Plus with 30-06 and 150 gr bullet is it even possible to stuff in enough 4320 to have an over charge

While it would be mildly compressed yes you can blow it up. 62 grs with a 150 is only 106% of available but 79,000psi. It wouldn't be a full case as you added the powder YOu could settle 4230 by 106%. Or simply seat the bullet and it would easily compress it.

It is pretty hard to overload rifle cases with the proper powder, not impossible, but most rifle powders fill it up pretty good.

I used to know a guy who filled them up to the top and crushed the bullet in as common practice.

I also know of folks who tried their own blends, i.e. adding a little Bullseye to get them going quicker. Yes they walk amongst us.

47.0 grs of 4064 will fill a 7x57 case to a little past the shoulder, easily compressed with a 160gr bullet. 47.0grs is 8grs (+/-) over max depending on whose book you're reading. Fired in 98 Mauser, the results mirror those of Howard's. Ask me how I know.

I don't think a "cold welded" bullet will come out with an inertia type puller. Those types of hammer pullers take a few whacks and you have to whack them hards as well, almost handle breaking hard.

The collet pullers are more versatile for diagnostics etc.

If the cases are crimped or if they may be a little stuck(not quite fused, it is helpful to use a seating die and seat the bullet in a little deeper to break the seal or crimp.

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
Could very well be the case here. Pulled 3 bullets. Each took numerous wacks with the bullet puller.

No inconsistency in powder charge. Plus with 30-06 and 150 gr bullet is it even possible to stuff in enough 4320 to have an over charge

If you managed to pull three bullets I don't think 'cold welding' will be the issue. My experience related above still only resulted in flattened primers and no other adverse effect.

You say the stock splitting and frozen bolt happened on the third shot. What were the primers and other pressure indicators like on the empty cases from the first two rounds you fired?

The Ruger is a modern high strength rifle and to have this happen from one shot, obviously the pressure has been extreme to the point of basically blowing up the rifle.

Did the second shot you fired sound normal? What type are the projectiles, could they have been solids with the nose hollow pointed or filed off to expose the lead core, a bit like the modern protected point bullets. If this was the case then perhaps the jacket from the second round fired lodged in the bore, as has been known to happen with 'doctored' solids, then the subsequent shot is fired with an obstructed barrel.
A doctored solid fired and leaving the jacket lodged in the bore would sound reasonably normal but the target would show up a bullet hole well off the POA and probably tumbling if it hit the target at all (just a very undersized lead core). Maybe you did not check the target after the catastrophe you have experienced?