Another post got me to thinking about stoc geometry and I have a quick but loaded question. Assuming we are in a perfect world what is the "perfect geometry" for a heavy caliber gun? I am getting ready to restock my mod 70 featherweight (270) and would like to improve upon the stock winchester design...

thanks, John

Beats me, but i've managed to shoot the big Weatherby cals
with their stock with reasonable comfort. With many trap
shotguns i've noticed a lot of the butt up and off the
shoulder- that can't be good can it?
With my rifles (not Weatherbys) the bottom of the butt digs
into my upper chest, and that can't be good either.
Maybe you'll have to get "fitted".
John L.

Every individual has a different "fit" for guns (length of pull, height of comb, etc), just as they do for clothing.
To me, for a heavy caliber, I like a stock where the comb slopes slightly down from but to pistol grip. Such a design allows the recoil to move the wood away from your face not at it. The classic European stock is designed with the front of the comb higher than the back. For me, those things just get pushed back and slam into my cheek. Lots of those guys are tough I guess.

This is the sort of proper stock geometry you want:

www.biesen.com

AD

I have been told that the Borden Rimrock is a Biesen design by a circuitous route.



Jim Cloward in Washington state designed the Rimrock and apparently he was a student of the Biesen design and pretty much followed that geometry.



Now don't y'all get after me for spreading BS - I admit I'm repeating second hand info but I got this from a fellow who has many, many custom stocks and has studied the design of most of the "name" stockmakers for the last several decades. In short, I see no reason to disbelieve what he told me.



Jlongo, interesting that you would prefer just the design that Rod Serengeti is showing in his thread and that so many people are bashing as totally inappropriate.



I myself prefer a size 44 Regular and for the life of me don't understand how anybody could wear any other size - must be stupid people. Oh, wait, we're talking about rifle stocks, not coats. Oops, my bad. (tic, folks, tic, okay?)



Seriously - I like that ugly old Remington BDL stock and have recently spent darn near two grand to refit my rifles with the McMillan Remington BDL stock. Even my Winchester Model 70 .375 wears that stock design. It really tames the recoil on that rifle as well as my .300 Win. Mag. A Monte carlo with a relatively closed pistol grip on a .375 H&H - geez, what am I thinking?!



I'm thinking that after some 45 years of shooting all kinds of rifles and all kinds of stock designs I just picked that one that fits me and am not worried that it may or may not fit someone else's idea of a perfect design.



So, at least IMHO, there is no "perfect" design, at least not one that is perfect for every thin neck, bull necked, string bean or rotund, 5' 4" or 6' 7", scope shooting or iron sight using shooter out there. Severe drop at heel and thin combs are bad. Straight combs are nice as long as they aren't too close to the bore line, again with "too close" being decided upon only by the individual shooter. A bit of cast off (cast on for lefties) helps. A fat or at least well rounded comb sure helps, and that's about all I know. Beyond that - afraid you are on your own. Just have to do like most other folks and pick up and handle a bunch of rifles and just pick the kind that feels best. You will know it when you find it.



Anybody want to trade in their stocks on a bunch of size 44 regular coats?

I can't comment on whether the Rimrock is a Biesen design (or Cloward design) or not, but I have one on my .375 Taylor. Very comfortable to shoot. I don't get scope kisses or punches to the cheek. I never thought I would say this, but the grip area could be a tad bit thicker. BUT, everything works well together. Close my eyes, throw it to my shoulder, open my eyes, and......I'm looking right thru the Zeiss on target. No complaints.....

MKane160

Allen,

Looked at Biesen's web site and there isn't one photo of a stock where there gun is horizonital. Every shot is at an odd angle plus the rear of the action has a shadow cast on it. The stocks look relatively "straight" but they also all look the same from 6mm to 375. So you mind explaining.

Quite simply, the Biesen-type stock with a high, fairly straight, thick comb and a more curved, less open grip provides optimum handling and control of recoil, no matter if the rifle is a 6mm Rem. or a .375 H&H. That stock design just-plain works. As soon as Jack O'Connor discovered Al Biesen, he abandon the pre-war stock designs (which for some odd reason seem to be in vogue now) in a hurry and for the most part didn't hunt with any other stock pattern for the next thirty years, no matter if the rifle was a .270 Win. or a .416 Rigby. Even when he became acquainted with Earl Milliron, O'Connor sent Earl one of his Biesen-stocked rifles to basically copy.



Jack's successor, Jim Carmichel, who is a personal friend of mine, and who has literally shot every sort of rifle that's ever been invented, adopted this same stock design some thirty years ago for his core group of hunting rifles that he has literally used around the world and back on hundreds of big game animals. If you look at photos of Jim's Clayton Nelson .280 Rem., his Biesen 7X57, his self-stocked .458 Win., his Goens .30-06, and his David Miller .338 Win. Mag., they all feature this same fundamental stock design, and for the same basic reasons: Optimum recoil control and optimum handling.



I hired James Tucker this year to stock a .270 for me, so when Jim was ready for the shaping stage I drove down to Medford with a Milliron-stocked rifle in tow and asked Jim to basically copy the grip, comb shape, etc., which he was glad to do. When the stock was complete, Jim called and told he how pleased he was with the shape of that stock. Amoung other things, he was astounded at how well that pistol grip controlled the rifle, and it does.



AD

Allen, in your eyes, is the Legend stock of similar design to what you're describing ??

Thank you,
Pat

The Miller designed Winchester stock is a fine design buy why can't they shape their synthetic like it instead of the current monstrosity. But as for the finest factory Walnut stock it is the Kimber 8400........DJ

Pat, yes, D'Arcy's 'Legend' stock fits the bill just fine, and certainly fits my definition of a proper America Classic-style stock, and it handles recoil better than any stock I've used to date. Again, he's designed it with a high, straight comb, and it's fairly thick in the butt, plus a bit of cast-off. I'm a pretty average-size guy, but I do have big hands (you can tell I was farm-raised) and D'Arcy's pistol grip is curved properly for full control with the shooting hand, but it has a bigger, longer grip than Biesen's, and it fits my hand a bit better as a result.

I agree that Winchester needs to provide the Miller-designed Model 70 stock in synthetic. Perhaps McMillan will someday, that is, if there isn't some sort of copy-infringement problem to get over........

AD

DJpaint I only handled that Kimber stock once and liked it. I have a nice big print of the kimber that I am compareing the comb nose to a G.A.G. Gary Goudy classic style stock that im working on now that Ive been reshapeing. Im going to grind back the nose alittle on this GAG stock so its about have way centered with the grip cap, The nose is cramping my thumb a little.

Jim, there may well be bad blood involved, I just don't know. Both parties are from the same state, so I'm certain they've crossed paths more than once.

If McMillan was smart, he'd hire a couple of great, world-class professional stockmakers to design a couple of (or a few) truly great stocks that would work properly with the various actions, plus factory barreled-actions. If they did, they would not only enhance their product line significantly, but they'd greatly reduce their overhead, sundry hassles, and inventory.

They could accomplish this feat because the new, better-designed stocks would allow them to drop almost all of the many, many semi-disfunctional factory stocks that they offer which were mostly designed by a committee of people who seldom shoot, and almost never hunt -- not true professional stockmakers.

But quite honestly, I don't think the concept of great stock architecture is fully grasped at McMillan. But they do make one heck of a well-built stock............

AD

Ditto Allen, The two most important aspects of a sythetic stock are design and construction. McMillan has a good handle on construction, their hunting stocks could use better design.......DJ

I'm in agreement with what allen and others have said about design and actual fabrication of McMillan stocks. That's why D'arcy's Legend is so neat. It was designed by one of the best men ever in the business and built by a company who knows how to make a high quality, strong, durable product.

'Amen' to that!

AD

I have several prints of custom stocks by different stock makers. Just currios does anyone know whos design this is?



It is on richards microfit site old classic #102

from: DJpaintles - I'm on lb404's computer..

The picture of the "old classic" from Richards microfit bears little or no resemblance to what you actually get from them. The two saving graces are that they usually leave enough wood for you to modify it to where it looks like you want and they usually have nice wood for the money. But be forewarned that what you get doesn't look like the picture.......DJ

HAAAA HAAA. sounds about right.

Ive never got anything from richards . Just GAG. and filling and grinding whats left.



I need to find a duplicator with a style I like. I have a Remington 720 (enfield)with no stock for my next project.



Anyone with a patterns for a 720?

If you find someone let me know. I got a Rem 30S that would probably go in the same stock with very little modification. Maybe we could get a deal on two stocks.

John