This question is for JBelk for the most part, from a newbee, but I will appreciate any input to the max:

I'm about to chamber a new barrel for a Rem 700 action and have the threads cut, recess and shoulder cut, and muzzle turned all on centers so there is less than 0.0001" runout.

My question is in three parts;

1. How do you keep the brass tips on the steadyrest from getting chewed up during the chambering process?

2. Do you use roller tips on the steady?

3. Are roller tips a better way to go than using plain brass tips?

I've read all I could find on this and other sites about threading, chambering and crowning but brass tips vs roller tips has eluded me.

Any suggestions on where to obtain roller tips so I don't have to make them?

Thanks Makatak

chamber through the headstock, with a spider on the muzzle end. Or if you are set on using a steady, run it on the portion of the barrel just past the shoulder. For simplicity, cutting the tennon, threading and chambering should all be done in one setup. aka dont take down your setup after each operation.

since you said for the most part some of others can shed light ....

1. I would have made sure the barrel OD ran true to the bore and thus your threads...then you could run the steady rest off the barrel.
2. I dont know if JBelk uses rollers...but I installed them on a steady rest we had at work.

3. I personally think if the rollers are good bearings...ie they run concentric...then it should be a better situation having rollers...less galling and friction....but I have only used the rollers a few times....someone who has tried many jobs both ways is better qualified to answer I guess....

4. I have seen where some gunsmiths make up threaded bushings that are a close fit onto the threads and are concentric...and thus they set on the bushing..which is screwed onto the threaded shank...good luck....bob

I've used plain brass tips on my steadyrest with the barrel running true on the threads many times. I use lots of STP Lube and have had absolutely no problems with the threads damaging the brass tips( Jet 1340). With that said, John Ricks has a super neat roller bearing steady design, purpose built for this application that I have no quams about copying the first chance I get! -Rob

Makatak,

The first project I did after installing my lathe was to shit can the brass from the steady rest and replace them with roller bearings on custom bearing saddles I made my self. I'll shoot some digital pictures and email them too you so you can see how I did it. As far as running the steady rest on threads, I don't. I always cut the threads last.

Good luck,

Malm

Makatak---

I make a skim cut all the way down the shoulder of the barrel before threading. That gives two places to sit the steady.......but I usually run it on the threads anyhow. Deburr the threads with a mill fill as a last step be SURE to clean any abrasives from the threads and shank and squirt on some STP. The worst thing that can happen is to get a particle of 180 abrasive stuck in a brass nose. That scars a barrel up something fierce!.

I've used a lot of roller-end steady rest and built a set for mine, but I don't like them for gun work while turning. All it takes is one chip ironed into a barrel and you're faced with having to re-contour it to get it out. I use them if I'm turning a shaft or doing "industrial" work.

I DO use a ball bearing slipped up the barrel until it stops for a place for the steady to run for crowning..........or, if I don't have the proper sized bearing, I apply a layer of stainless steel tape on the barrel and run the steady on that for crowing.

I've never done barrel work at the spindle and wrote a long and detailed description of why not......other than my lathe is too big to do it.

A couple of photos of the steady that Rob mentioned. A discussion follows the photos. Some of you have seen the photos before as I have posted them several times.





This critter is made from an old babbit pillow block housing from the junk box and a chunk of 4 inch ship channel. Has a hollow spindle that the barrel pokes through. The spindle runs in angular contact precision SKF bearings. I bored out the pillow block housing for the bearings, machined up a spindle out of some bar stock, and a little welding on the ship channel. Then a bit of machining on the components.

Some notes: The spindle has 4 setscrews on the big end that work like a 4 jaw chuck. It does not make any difference what the exterior surface of the barrel is like, it can be out of round, octagon, or I can even straddle a front sight ramp. A strip of copper is wrapped around the barrel for protection, I can put a blued barrel in this steady without marring. And the end of the spindle where the setscrews are is large enough in diameter so I can put in another setscrew on top of the adjusting setscrews to act as a locking device. In the bottom photo, you can see the SKF Locknut and lock washer that secures the spindle in the bearings and is used to adjust the bearing preload.

This type of steady beats the three finger steady by a wide margin, and it also beats any type of fingered steady that has roller bearings on the fingers. I made it about 15 years ago, my only regret is I did not make it sooner. Sure simplifies barrel setups. Anyone that does as much barrel work as I do should make up a steady like this, it sure saves a lot of time and solves some difficult setup problems. Add a good muzzle flush pumped coolant system and barrel work & chambering is hog heaven. (I will post photos of the muzzle flush system if anyone is interested).

Before taking off on a project to build a steady of this type, you gotta have a good understanding of precision alignment of rotating assemblies in order to get the steady spindle true to the lathe spindle. Can't see them, but the blocks that meet the lathe ways have shims between the tops of the blocks and the bottom of the 4 inch ship channel. All mating surfaces are machined. And everything is doweled in addition to the clamp bolts.

The dial indicators? The one on the back reads in tenths and is used with precision bore plugs to align the bore center to the lathe centerline. The indicator on the left is used for depth control of the carriage when facing or as a thread stop indicator when threading up to a shoulder without using the dreaded thread relief groove.

[ 04-15-2003, 05:34: Message edited by: John Ricks ]

John--

That's a REALLY slick rig. I LIKE THAT!

I typing with dirty hands from rootin around in the junk box!!

I can see a simple and lightweight steady rest in my future.

Yea, Jack, happiness is a bunch of well stocked junk boxes, mine are overflowing and the shelves are full!!! Way back when I made the steady, at first I was going to fab up the whole unit, but the old babbit bearing pillow block caught my eye. After a few hours in the mill and lathe it was ready for the bearings and suited for bolting down on the ship channel. Top and bottom of the ship channel is milled and surface ground.

I am working on a stock duplicator now, practically everything needed is coming from the boxes and shelves, minus a couple of sections of structural steel. I am trying to combine the best features of the many types of duplicators I have seen to come up with one that is both rigid, accurate, and easy to use. Spindle will have 3-1/2 horsepower so no "bogging". The TIG machine will get a workout on this one.

If you start on a steady, make the spindle bore at least 1-1/2". Mine is 1-3/8" and I just can squeeze a No. 6 barrel muzzle first in it with a NECG masterpiece ramp mounted. I like to silver solder the ramp on first, then cut to length and crown, this steady really makes it very easy.

[ 04-15-2003, 06:33: Message edited by: John Ricks ]

I have used my current Jet 13" lathe since 1987. I replaced the brass steady rest ends with bearings. Am currently on my second set of bearings. You can find good bearings with a 3/4" OD and a 1/4" hole ID. They are usually 9/32" thick.
One thing I ran into years ago, when you can't use a steady rest normally. I took a 1" long trimmed end off a Douglas barrel breech.(a good use for those trimmed ends) I Set it up in the lathe and bored it and threaded it to fit the barrel shank. Set the barrel up in the lathe, screwed the threaded bushing on, moved the tail stock in place. Then did a clean up pass on the OD of the bushing. I then could set the steady rest on the bushing. You can then chamber the barrel. It takes some more math to measure the breech, but it can be done this way.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Yeaaaaaaaaa. I like that Steady steady rest John. I've been doing my damdest to find pictures of it I could see well enough to figure out a way to copy it. I crawled all over your site looking and peeking. Yessss, I gotta have pictures of that pressure wash, oiling, wash away the chips, high speed chambering, do it right, thingy-gadget. I have a dozen Ruger, two Savage, 4 or 5 Rem 700 and XP-100 actions that need barrels and tuning. Thanks a ton.

And Thanks all for all the info. I feel rather smug in that I actually did some of the suggested things and those I didn't I was thinking about but the ideas hadn't jelled quite yet, except for the threaded collars used as bearings, that good idea wasn't even on the same planet as I stand. I need to cram 40 years of machining knowledge into the time I have left. Gonna be tough.

I have a 17 cal Shilen barrel set up now with a spider outboard and the turned section of the chamber end in the 3 jaw. I put a last word on each end and set the spider to zero runout and the 3 jaw has right at 0.0003" runout so I feel pretty good at what I've accomplished so far. This with a cheap Grizzly lathe. The threads have 0.0001" runout or so and pin gauges stuck in each end just barely wiggle the needle even with the other runouts. This is my first attempt so I'm like a groom on the weddin' night, hot and horny but just a little nervous. I keep looking over my shoulder for the papa or Murphy to show up.

I've read most of yo-alls past posts that I could find and incorporated some of your suggestions so all of you pat each other on the back and yourself too. You're all good teachers, something rare I've come to find out.

I have only one more major problem to work on. The Shilen barrel has 0.010" bow in it and jumps up and down like a lizard, between centers.

Anyone have a suggestion on straightening out the bow or just send it back to Shilen with a squawk?

Hey, Right on Bro's, you're good people. Makatak

Makatak----

Murphy LIVES in a gunshop.

The .010 bow in the barrel is normal for about any sporter weight you pick up.....except Lothar-Walthar. There's an amazing number of those that are dead straight.

John---

I noticed the tight fit or your sleeve and figured a little more room would be a good thing.

I have a ball bearing pillow block with a 2 inch bore with an extended lip on the bearing........in fact I have everything I need to make one today.......and might.

Thanks!

Jack--- Right, big bore is better. My bearing box has some nice bore sizes, one day in my "spare time" I plan on making another steady with a bigger bore. Some things to watch for: Be sure the tailstock side of the steady has enough "hang over" so the tool post can get close enough without interference from the carriage saddle wings. The base on mine is too wide and interfers with the wings. Solution is a base narrow enough to allow the wings to pass. And, the total distance on mine, front bearing to back bearing, could be less.

Another thought on the second model of my steady will be a coller and setscrews, like a cathead, on the headstock side. With a big enough bore, this will allow stuffing a receiver through, place a snug arbor in the bolt bore, indicating both ends, and using a driving arbor, maybe with small U-Joints or a flexible coupling, to drive with the lathe chuck. Then recutting receiver threads, bolt lug seats and facing the receiver will be very easy.

Regarding barrel runout in the center, all barrels have runout. Could be the bore is some what straight (hopefully!) and the barrel OD is just "out'.

One thing I have learned about threading and chambering: With a good removable piloted reamer, and snug pilot bushings, combined with a good floating reamer holder and proper chambering technique, the reamer will tend to follow the bore centerline. And this bore centerline is in a different place a few inches into the barrel!!! You will find some suprises when checking bore runout with a long stem indicator (I have one with a 3 inch stem that will fit into the bore, I can indicate 3 inches in from the breech end). What this boils down to is the chamber, when reamed, will tend to follow the bore where the pilot is!!. So, if you cut the threads first, then ream, the chamber and threads are not concentric!!! I "discovered' this years ago by checking chamber runout with a indicator after chambering. Duh, chambers were not concentric with the threads. Solution is to set up correctly and cut the chamber first, then indicate to the chamber wall, then turn the thread shank and cut the threads. This gets important in accuracy guns, not too important with that 458 Lott.

BR smiths that know what is up use a long stem indicator and indicate the bore at the point where the throat will be cut by the reamer. Using a long stem indiactor takes some getting used to, as it hops from groove to land and takes more time to indicate the bore. One neat thing about the long stem indictor, you can measure the groove depth vs. land height of the barrel. Can tell you some interesting things, like are all grooves the same depth? This knowledge is important in the super accurate BR and 1000 yard rifles, as a difference in groove depth affects the center of gravity vs center of geometry of the rotating bullet and gryoscopic stability. One more of the tricks of the good BR smith, which I ain't.

That's a big 10-4 on Murph. We are drinkin' buddies. He does the pourin' and I do the drinkin', then he disappears. One of these days.....

John

I read your post about the 3 incher and put it at the top of my "when I find some money" list. I want to understand all I don't know about what you said. With all the crooked barrels, out of line chambers, stange vibrations ans such, it's a wonder anyone can hit anything much beyond the end of the barrel much less at a grand.

I've been checking all my "rebuilds" that never shot to my expectations and they all have big wiggles where they shouldn't. I can see, now, why all the machinists I've come across hate dumass field mechanics. Goo'nuff, thaduldoo and getitnda dirt, just don't get it anymore.

I've read a lot about Lothar barrels and will use one for my next barreling project and will set the Shilen up the the bow up and down. Maybe the vibes will flip the bullet in a direction I can work with, but I think ol' Murp will stick his pud in there somewhere.

Again, thanks for all the input. I have it saved on a floppy just in case. Makatak

Makatak, one of the areas in both precision machining and precision rifle building that is overlooked too often is the ability to make accurate measurements (down to 0.0002" or so) in a repeatable manner AND knowing what to do with the information obtained.

Most barrels shoot pretty good, some are just a little better than others. The key is proper machining of both action and the barrel and proper assembly, including the stock, pillars and bedding. It's all a big system, the best barrel in the world combined with poor machining or poor bedding does not have a chance. Likewise, don't omit the sights, scope mounts and scope, they are also an important part of the system.

In addition to the micrometers, buy good dial indicators and learn how to use them. There are many styles of indicators, some have a definite purpose in gun building, like the 3 inch long offset stem model I mentioned. Again, you gotta know how to interpret the data. Measure, measure, measure. I take readings after chambering to see how good a job I did, all this info goes on a barrel data sheet for each chambering job. I refer back to this material often. All this "stuff" goes into big three ring binders and sits on the shelf next to the lathe.

You're definitely right about treating a weapon as a system, John. One of the things I learned way back in dealing with cars, humans, guns, trucks and just about anything more complicated than a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

I have built, rebuilt and tuned shootin' irons for me, all the family members and many friends down through the years. For the most part I can take a factory POS and make a consistent 3/4 to half incher out of it without a major hassle or much trouble, treating it as a system and fixing each component one at a time. The hardest part is convincing the human element to follow my instructions. That's just about as easy and uncomplicated as diggin' a tick out of your dogs ass.

You do have me thinking about the relationship between the chamber and the shank and concentricity. If I take a light cut on the full shank with the barrel on centers and the bore indicated with a pin gauge at each end so there is little or no runout, then cut the chamber and turn and thread the shank, how can the chamber not be concentric with the threads or vice versa? This presupposes that the pilot on the reamer fits the bore and fits the reamer and the reamer follows the pilot. I can understand it if there is a bunch of slop here and there. Don't be messin' with my head like that, ALZ is doing a good enough job as it is.

I just pulled a 22-243 Midd barrel off a Ruger M77 to see what the numbers were a few days ago. This barrel never shot below 3/4" no matter what I did to the stock, bedding, sights or ammo combination. I finally sent it off to a smith in Carson city, Nv to have a new chamber cut. He was supposed to cut 2 1/2" off the barrel to get out of the old chamber and cut a new chamber. That didn't happen. We all know what happened to the reamer track then. I checked the threads, on centers again, to see if they were parallel with the bore and they were, but the chamber and the rest of the shank were both out 0.006". My guess is the first smith cut the chamber in a three jaw and was concentric with the outside shank along with the threads and the second set of threads was cut on centers but the reamer followed the track of the first chamber. At least the barrel was straight on the receiver but it still won't shoot below 3/4", but that's another project down the road. Lots to learn, lots to do. Now, when I finish a rebarrel I will know who to talk to if it doesn't turn out right.

Thanks again. Hey, John, Not to be pushy or insistent or anything like that, but I won't sleep until I see those flush system pictures. Enjoy Makatak

AHH, think of the bore as not being straight, if it is "crooked" a thou or two per inch, when the chamber is finally cut, the chamber mouth will be non concentric by several thou. This is caused by the tendency of the reamer to cut in relationship to where the pilot is in the barrel. So, if in a distance of 3 inches, the bore wanders a total of 0.004", then the mouth of the chamber will be non concentric by nearly this amount. Remember, with a pin gauge, you are indicating only a short distance of the bore. This is why the BR smiths use an extended dial indicator to indicate the barrel at the place where the pilot will run. The reamer will not flex or bend, it is glass hard.

NOW!! if the bore is a little "cocked" as above, and the reamer is held rigid, like in a drill chuck in the tailstock, guess what, you will cut an oversize chamber. Using the tap wrench method and a lathe center can also cut an oversize chamber, as the big end of the reamer cannot float, the front end just "wobbles".

Using a three jaw chuck in holding a barrel for chambering is an unforgivable sin.

Now you can see why the BR guys spend a lot of money on a barrel, hoping to get one that has as straight a bore as possible, plus consistent bore and groove diameter. It all adds up to tiny groups.

I understand for the most part. I have lots of questions and observations, but I don't want to appear to be a smart ass or jerking your chain or take up too much of your time, but I will if you let me.

What brand indicator are you using with the long probe? J&L and MSC only list a couple with probes in the 1.5 to 2.75" range.

Also how do you hold your reamer? Brownells list Dave Manson and Aurora floating reamer holders, but I think you don't much care for this type. I also read of using the drill chuck open just enough to slide the reamer in with enough for a good bearing surface, in Gunsmith Kinks, and using a washer as a bearing surface to push against.

This sound good to a cheap, squeeze a nickel till the buffalo shits, novice. Tell me the other side of the story.

Thanks again Makatak