Recently I was browsing in a retail outlet of a major supplier of hunting/fishing gear, and wandered over to their high-end guns department, which they refer to as the "Gun Library" (a give-away as to their identity if you've been there). Two employess were looking over a rifle they'd apparently just taken in in trade. It was a traditional-looking European sporter, 98 Mauser action, double set triggers, light walnut stock with low comb and short thin fore-end.

"Looks like about a .35 caliber", one said. "Must be a 9mm Luger."

The other one picked up a bore light and started looking into the bore, first from one end, then the other.

"Chamber's too long," he said. "Can't be a 9mm Luger, but damned if I can figure out what it might be."

With expertise like that waiting to serve, I could hardly wait to do some business there.

Careful now. Terry and BC are knowledgable guys. But maybe it was someone else.

One of 'em must've been ASS_CLOWN

The spare magazine and holster didn't give it away? Okie John

Yep. They's nuthin' lak wun of them 9mm Luger rifles fer shuutin' them wald borze!

You should have told them it was a 9mm super luger and you had to fireform the regular wimpy 9mm cases. nevermind....

Most employees behind gun counters are robots with TRS80 based brains.

Those employees were different, and were humans with a sense of humor.

craigster,

Come on now, give me some credit! I know that the 98 Mauser was never chambered in 9mm Luger, it was chambered in the much more power Super 9mm Parabellum!

I know I have one!

My particular favorite thing about the "Gun Library" is the incredible degree of OVERPRICING that most of the guns contained within exhibit! This company (that we have chosen to not name for some reason) seems MIGHTY PROUD of anything it places in the vaunted "Gun Library". There is a particularly nice Sterling Davenport 500 Jeff sitting in the "Gun Library" in Dundee, Michigan. The pull is about an 1" too short for me so I am not interested, but if someone is a little long on cash, and a ~ 13.75" LOP is good for them, this is an exquisite rifle. IIRC it is ~ $5500.

ASS_CLOWN

Gentlemen



I'm quite sure it was Bevis and Butthead you overheard





Cheers

/ JOHAN

Hey guys, what the hell do you expect from someone who is paid minimum wage, probably not more that $8.50 and hour. There are people who will work for that just to get the discount. Sheer brainpower is usually overlooked and undervalued there.

Jim,

Quote:

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Sheer brainpower is usually overlooked and undervalued there.

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That statement of your applies to FAR MORE places than just the "Gun Library"! FAR MORE places!

ASS_CLOWN

Hey choda boy
If 13.75" is 1" short for you, you must be at least 6'10" or taller. Or, you might just come up a little short and think shooting a rifle with a close to 15" length of pull will get you out of the fart section in a crowded elevator.

Seriously, do you take a deep breath every time you get in an elevator or duck your head?
gunmaker

thefinegunmaker,



I take it you are a troll? I say this because if you really were a "fine gun maker" you would know that a 14.75" LOP is NOT that long. I am 6'2", with a 1220 mm chest, and 927 mm arms. Believe me I have NO problem with a 15.25" LOP on a shotgun, but prefer a slightly shorter pull (14.5" to 14.75") on a rifle (particularly on a big bore rifle). Do you know why that might be?



ASS_CLOWN

Bob,
tell them that a fella in houston will buy it, even though it's not a 9 luger... which drives the price down...

I'll even pay shiping

jeffe

tfg,
sticking up for scott a little...

in heavy recoiling gun, 13.75 doesn't fit my 5'10 son.... he needs14.25 or so to keep from "wiping" his nose with his 8.25# 458 winmag...

I am only 6'4, with a 38-39 sleeve, and i REQUIRE 15 3/8 on big bore... once again, to NOT wipe my nose with my friggin thumb,...

I've shot with a couple fellas here, and yup, the guns fit me

jeffe

Hey clown boy

You must spend a lot of time shooting uphill or at birds flying by with your rifles. There's a reason shotguns are usually 1" longer pull than rifles. I can't count how many rifles I've stocked over 14.75" pull that had to be returned to have 1" or more removed later.

I am also 6'2" but don't find it necessary to measure other parts of my body using the metric system.

gunmaker

Finegunmaker,

That made me think.

25 years ago I was at a cocktail party when the woman, that I escorted there, told a joke, "Know why women can't tell distance? Because they have always been told THIS is 8 inches." [holding her fingers very close to represent and small distance].

I interjected, "What do you mean? You have always been told THIS is 8 inches" [Holding my palms some distance apart].



Now I realize the discrepancy was over condition one vs condition two.



--

A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

thefinegunmaker,

The reason the stock is shorter on my rifles than my shotguns has NOTHING to do with shooting uphill or at birds with the rifles.

If you are what you say you are, you will immediately understand the need to understand arm length and chest size to PROPERLY fit a stock to a shooter. A 13.5" stock is sized for a man of 5'8" with a 32" arm and a 38" chest. It is far "easier" for a tall man to shoot a short mans rifle than the other way around, hence the need to make mass produced rifle stocks to the least common denominator <duh>.

By the way, my ignorant troll, the current line of Browning (and Benelli) rifles all have 14" or 14.25" LOP if I recall correctly (except for the Youth / Ladies models). Now go away and have some fun with yourself. Seriously, you are so ignorant of the trade as to not even be worthy of mockery!

Jeffeosso has even answered my question TO you for you! At least jeffeosso knows of what he speaks.

By the way, the metric measurements I gave to you convert to 48" and 36.5".

ASS_CLOWN

jeffe

If I meet you I will look up to you.



I feel that a big reason that big rifles stick your thumb in your face is that too much wood has been left on the stock. Many stockmakers and factory rifles leave large combs and the flute that your thumb fits into doesn't really work very well and uncomfortably digs into the top of your thumb/palm. This coupled with a grip circumference larger than necessary puts your thumb in an ineffective spot to hang on to the grip under heavy recoil. When I worked for Linebaugh reworking single action Rugers he showed me that the severe recoil is much more managable when he removed material from the grips making them more round and smaller in circumference. This was very noticable when shooting factory grips vs modified grips in the 475 wristbreakers with the in your face attitude. He handed me a 2X4 and told me to hang onto it. He easily ripped it out of my hands and gave me a broomstick. He couldn't remove that from my grip. That demonstration has stuck in my head every time I see a big bore rifle reaching Asquare porportions. If you can't hang onto it effectively under recoil it's gonna bite you! Unless you lengthen the pull more than I feel is necessary. I'm not saying longer pulls don't have their place, I've just seen too many people under 5'7" order rifles with pulls 14.5" or longer to later have them shortened to more reasonable lengths. Who ever came up with the insane idea that "if you hold a rifle on the grip and have your arm at 90 degrees then the recoil pad should rest in the crotch of your elbow" should be bitch slapped with a pair of sharpened baseball cleats.



This is just my opinion and I'm sure many will disagree.



sorry to have hijacked this thread



gunmaker

Blue
I concur.

My warm weather 25-06 antelope rifle comes in at 14" LOP and my elk rifle at 13.75". If I use my 25-06 cold weather hunting it tends to hang up on the quick shots. Especially those adrenaline filled running coyote shots!

I think Pachmayr used to make a system of removeable recoil pads that you could change from around .5" to a 1" pad. I've never used one so I can't objectively comment on it's quality.

gunmaker

Benelli shims for cast and drop.

TFG,
next time you areanywhere close to houston, let's go shoot.

Now, I've to tell you, like most things, the right answer is "it depends"..sure enough, if one was holding onto the wrong end of a lousiville slugger, i can see your grip thing...

BUT...

you know the 1903 and a3, right? that have a RIDICOUSLY short and thin stock.... I wipe my nose with them, and until I started shooting big bores, I just held different....

and then TWO scope cuts in a week, and everything changed...

btw, I know this aint perfect, but if i take a 15 3/8 gun, lay my finger over the trigger, bend my arm horizon and 90degrees, it STILL doesn't hit my bicep..

now, a winchester featherweight is both fairly long for a factory gun, and fairly thin in the wrist.. and after i put a 1" kickeez on it (just at 14.5 iirc) it STILL puts the backtop edge of my thumb into my knose.. that's my sons rifle...

I don't have a GRIP problem.. heh... you should see me shoot the 500.... I have a neck's too long, arms too long problem....


btw, 13,5" is sold be the average gunmaker to fit the average american male.. whos 5'10 the cz 550 (and wiping my nose) is 14.5 or so from the factory...

disagreeign is fine and dandy... especally when it's opinions and or one' take on issues

jeffe

thefinegunmaker,

Quote:

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I've just seen too many people under 5'7" order rifles with pulls 14.5" or longer to later have them shortened to more reasonable lengths.

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I would believe that to be a complete fact! I am NOWHERE near 5'7" and I clearly stated that! I haven't been 5'7" since 6th grade! Your comments were uncalled for and erroneous. Have a nice day.

Does anyone know the REAL reason that it is of paramount importance on a big bore rifle to have a minimal drop, straight comb stock of maximum practical LOP, with a long barrel (24"+)? I will give you one hint: It has NOTHING to do with "felt recoil"! The answer is ALL about practical tactical performance in the field when doing that for which a "stopping rifle" is for. The Brits did two out of the three, primarily because they felt it "better" to have a significant drop at comb for use with the irons. Their belief being it is easier to achieve quick sight alignment with this low comb stock. I really have not noticed a big problem with using the irons with the minimal drop straight comb of an American classic styled stock, as long as the cheek plate is properly fitted, and one practices with their rifle.

ASS_CLOWN

Try this. Get a 1/2" and a 1" pad. Make a couple of wood screw outside, machine screw inside bushings. Install the bushings to receive the pads. Grind the pads to fit. You now have a quick 1/2" pull adjustment. The machine screws won't waller out the wood from repeated use. Works for me.

Dave

The rediculous thing is the price. I have 8 Davenport rifles and none of them cost more than $3800.00 new from HIMSELF. I have three on order from him now. 9.3x62, 404 Jeffery, and a 500 Jeffery and they are all or Orberndorf Commercial actions and none are over $4000.00. Another real joke is another dealer in Oklahoma had one 500 Jeffery for sale for $8700.00 that cost the original owner $3800.00. When I pointed these two guys out to Sterling he had a great laugh. " Maybe I should raise my prices, what do you think"???? I said fine, after I take delivery of my two and then I placed an order for a third.

That is kinda what I thought too, but you don't have to wait, perhaps that is worth the difference to some people.

ASS_CLOWN