Forgive me if this is common knowlege, but I thought I would pass along a bit of information on a situation I encountered recently. I was doing a bit of plinking about a month ago, with my 375H&H. Apparently, I had not sorted my brass as well as I thought I had, and I had one break off at the belt, not a good thing. I have the good fortune to be real good friends with my gunsmith, and he got right to work on it. Most stuck case removers depend on the case being intact to work, so that wouldn't be possible in this case. He made numerous attempts at removing the case, solvents, easy out type tools, etc. I was ready to buy a reamer and go that route. My smith suggested we try Cerro-Safe, and create a plug to knock out. It worked like a charm, and all that was required after, was polishing the chamber. I now have worlds cleanest 375. and I'll be paying better attention to the condition of my brass as well.

Good shooting.
DGK

You must make a feeler gage from a coat hanger wire. Bend the end to a small hook and file a edge on the hook. Reach inside each and every case. If the hook really grabs at a insipiant head separation then hack saw that case in half and see how bad or good it is. Then you will know how far you can go.

Belted cases were not really designed to be reloaded. But the old wildcaters from the 30's glommed onto them. Too bad.

I give the .375 H&H some space as it's a DGR and should be shot only with like new cases anyway. But the other smaller cartridges should be replaced. We are on our way finally with the RUM's and WSM's now that the sales bloom is finally off of the belted case.

The Remington .375 H&H brass that I have has a much thicker web than WW brass. But the Rem cases have less capacity.

I am testing .375 case life made into .300 H&H's right now. So far the Rem brass lasts much longer.

I have found that removing cases that have separated is easy if one simply shoves a shotgun bore brush into the bottom of the case as far as it will go and pull it out. The bristles are folded back and will not have enough room to fold the other way so you end up with all those little bristles digging into the inside of the case and pulling it out.

I have used an oversized bore brush from the muzzle and that has worked also.

The only time I had this problem I dropped a bullet into the case then melted some solder in behind it, then pushed it out with a cleaning rod.

I have never had any problems with the belts of the .338 cases I handload. I only neck-size the cases, and run new cases through a full-length die. I discard the cases after firing them 4 or 5 times. A bag of 50 .338WM cases cost around $10.00, so every other year or so I buy one bag full.

Case head separation can occur with any case regardless of if it has a belt or not. Neck sizing followed by case anealing after four to six firing will extend any cartridge's case life.

Ray In Alaska,

But 30/06's can be reloaded 50 or more times as long as the action has front lugs and the dies are reasonable.

What does this tell you?

Look at Stevesloadingpages. I recall some cases going over 100 reloads.

Belted cases were never designed to be reloaded. It is done but not for long. Thus the danger when a handloader is familar with regular cartridges.

Hey Don, Not trying to start an argument with you, but I have never had any problem reloading "Belted" cases.

A long time ago(15-20years?), I saw a reference in one of the Gun Rags claiming the Belted cases just didn't last long. A that time, I already had a good bit of Belted case experience and disagreed with the concept that there is "ANY" problem inherent to a Belted case.

Decided to run a short test to see for myself. I randomly picked three R-P 7mmRemMag cases and began loading them with a SAFE MAX Load using Fed-215s,150gr Nosler Solid Base bullets and IMR-4831. That particular rifle prefered a Load slightly above what was listed as a MAX in all the Manuals I had, but there were no Pressure Signs, so on the test went.

Nothing was done except to Partial-Full Length Resize each time using a regular old RCBS Full Length Die.

On the 33rd set of shots per case, I had "one" neck split. I stopped at that point.

Later on it dawned on me that if I'd just bothered to "Anneal" the necks every 8-10 shots, the results would have obviously resulted in significantly more shots-per-case.

The old "wire feeler gauge" inside the case showed no indication of incipient casehead separation when I stopped.

So, my experience disagrees with what you have seen. Perhaps my rifle chambers and Full Length Dies have always had a closer tolerance match-up than your rifles/dies. Or perhaps you are not Partial-Full Length Resizing your Belted cases. Beats me.

In fact, I actually prefer Belted Cases over non-Belted since you do not need expensive "Thin Blade Micrometers" in order to get a good reading on Casehead Expansion.

But, I use both styles and see "NO" inherent design problems with either style.

Ray and Hot Core: Save your breath, there's no use talking to Don about belted cases. I think one must have bitten him when he was a small child, and he is absolutely irrational about them.

He doesn't seem to realize that a belted case is nothing other than a rimless case with a belt. The belt allows a straight-walled case like a .458 Winchester to be made on an otherwise beltless case by creating a headspacing mechanism.

With a bottlenecked case like a 7mm Remington or .338 Winchester, the case should be reloaded just like a rimless case to headspace on the shoulder -- making the belt irrelavant.

With two chambers and cartridges that were identical except for one being belted and the other rimless, if reloaded in the same way the brass would last for the same number of reloadings.

The only real advantage/disadvantage one has over the other is that belted brass does have a fail-safe headspacing mechanism, so that if the shoulder on a belted case is shoved too far back, it will still headspace safely (although sloppily if the chamber is cut too deep) on the belt.

Manufacturers do seem to cut their belted chambers more sloppily than their rimless chambers (presumably they get more chambers out a a given reamer if they start with it somewhat oversized, so that it can cut more chambers before being worn smaller than spec), but this is a problem with the manufacture of the gun, not the design of the case.

Don will surely respond with further dire condemnations of belted cases. Just humor him; he's got a thing about them, you know.

Not to jump on Don, but I haven't seen the dire problems with belted cases either, and I full length resize everything in all my rifles. Some of my 300 H&H and 338 WM cases have been fired many times, and if I find a problem it goes in the trash. Seems like the case head separations are about equal with my belted and non-belted cases when I check with a bent-over paper clip.

What the heck, brass is cheap. Why worry about getting 50 or 60 shots out of a case anyway when you can buy new brass so inexpensively these days? Seems like a non-issue to me.- Sheister

It seems that some have got lost in this thread. To find your way please go to the top of the page and read about the fellow rifeman who almost blew himself up with a belted case.

Just get out the chamber and cartridge drawings for belted cases. The reason for the head separations is right there in the tolerances.

Whether this is relevant or not but, I seem to remember seeing a Collet type die that would resize the area just above the belt on the case body. I think this is all the die did and you had to resize normally after that.

Anybody familiar with this?

Regards

Sheister: With some rifles, belted cases or not, the chamber dimensions are machined so there is not excessive headspace. With guns such as these it is possible to reload several times without experiencing case-head separation. Like you, I have never had such a problem.

I don't think dangerous game hunters are going to get rid of their "belted" cases. Case head separation can occur with any gun, including pistols, but one thing that will surely cause case head separation is excessive headspace of a cartridge's chamber.

A Google search of "Case-head separation" will bring a great number of links on this subject.

[ 06-21-2002, 10:47: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ]

Bronell�s sells a little tool for removing stuck cases. I bought one in .30-06, as i reload most for that ( rifle ) caliber. I intend to buy one in 9.3x62 even if I don�t reload, just in case ...

If I make a trip to Africa I would have such a thing at hand for every caliber I intend to use.

Perhaps an "African" matched set? "Bolt" set: 9.3x62, .375, .404, .416 Rigby, .458 W & Lott.

"Doubles" set: 9.3x74R, .375 flanged, 450 ( for 450/400 3", 450/400 3 1/4", 450 3 1/4" ), .470, for #2 cases.

:-))

Hermann

If you don't know how to properly size a case then you can have problems with case head seperations on a belted case. Since they headspace off of the belt instead of the shoulder then full length resizing sets the shoulder back more than it does on non belted cases. Any shooter with any knowledge of handloading recognizes this and sets his dies to headspace off of the shoulder, thus eliminating the overworking of the brass. Belted cases can be reloaded just as many times as a comparable beltless case. No case was specifically made to be reloaded, belted or not. If you're looking for a reason to hate belted cases, this ain't one because it's simply a non-factor.

You don't have the chamber and cartridge drawings do you?

Ray In Alaska points out correctly that some belted chambers can be tight in the shoulder dimension and thus perform like rimless cases.

This is why some report no problems and others have blown of heads.

Use that feeler gage or better yet don't buy another rifle with a belted case.

I've done a fair amount of reloading the 338WM, and limited amount on 375H&H. No problems, thus far. But that's not why I replied....

There is another thing that you can try if you get a case head separation. Chamber a fired brass, and extract it, sometimes the stuck case will come out with the empty. It has worked the only time that I tried it (a 308 BTW), is easy and you can do it in the field (if you have an empty), but may not work for "very stuck" cases.

Good shootin',

Bill

Don, "almost blew himself up with a belted case?"

I think you better re-read the original post. Nothing was said about blowing up a case, rifle, or even a good fart for that matter. And I still hold to my contention that a properly chambered rifle has no more problem with belted cases than non-belted cases and an improperly chambered rifle will have problems with brass whether it is belted or not.
I have new rifles and lots of Model 98's, Pre 64 Model 70's, etc... and I full length resize most of my brass and have had no real problems as you describe. As far as being knowledgable enough to size off the shoulder as someone said, I've never found it reliable enough with full length dies to make a real habit of it over the years. Of course, I've only been reloading for 30 years- maybe some of you old timers that have seen it all can teach me a thing or two. I'm all ears and I may even get serious about adjusting my dies to only touch the shoulder sometime.

Hot Core,
Sure took you long enough to come around to the dark side! LOL- If you saw how well the .338 worked in Africa, you would abandon all doubt- but I can't fault your choices either, they seem to be working out just fine for you ( and a few others) - Sheister

Woe is me, woe is me. I just bought a mere 50 rounds of virgin brass (which begs the question, how do we really know whether or not it is vir... oh, nevermind) for my .375 H&H Magnum. Anyway, I was under the misguided perception that I could reload this stuff until the cows came home. (Note: I have no cows. I don't even have a farm.) So I am going to have to go back and place a standing order for MORE .375 H&H Magnum brass??????????

Bummer.

I didn't know I wasn't supposed to reload belted brass. I sure wish someone would have told me before I reloaded my .416 Remington Magnum brass 40 or so times. Does this mean I should throw it out now???

Russ

gentlemen,

Sheister is right, I said nothing about blowing anything up. This was simply a case of full length sizing the same brass too many times, and the bolt pulled the end of the case off. My whole point of the post was to relate how the problem was solved, in case any of you have the same situation, it's just another option. I had the same problem a while back with a case breaking off in a die. They seem to break just above the belt. I have since begun to neck size only and sort my brass a bit better. I reload 7Rem, 300win, and 375H&H, and have never had any problems until now. I also picked up one of the Echo broken case removers from Brownells, although I hope I don't have to use it

Good Hunting and shooting,
DGK

A proper cut chamber and a properly adjusted die is the secret to any case belted or not...

I have never had a problem with a belted case as long as you fire form it the first loading and then load it to chamber specs from then on..I have some 300 H&H's that have been fired 23 times and probably been trimmed half that many times as the old 300 and 375 do stretch the necks a bit or at least with my warmish loads they do.

I know a lot of knowledgable folks expound on the beltless case, but the difference is not as much as some would have you believe..

the belted cases have survived a long time and I doubt that Remingtons new baby that is actually 120 years old is going to change the course of the belted case much...Remingtons never been successfull on calibers but once...

I think Russ has hit on a fool-proof method," When you find a cow at your door,it's time to buy brass. "

Ray Atkinson,

In another thread you said that you got five shots out of a .300 H&H case! Now it's a couple of dozen! http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=004624

As I have mentioned above I don't think some here have the chamber and cartridge drawings. Of course if there was never a problem then it would not matter but there is a significant percentage of chambers that are much longer than others. So for some to say there is no problem is just to say that they can't see it from their house. I bet most have never even used a feeler gage let alone looked at the drawings.

I am almost thru with a test of .300 H&H cases made from .375 H&H cases. This was done of course to FL size the new case to headspace on the shoulder from the first shot. So far Remington cases last the longest as they have a heavy web.

Of the three cases that are in this test one has now failed my standard with the feeler gage at 10 shots! The other two are still in. All of them have now had to be FL sized three times to chamber well at all. All other sizing was done with neck sizing only.

The load is 70.0 grs of surplus 4831, 215's and the 165 Sierra SBT. Velocity with WW cases was 2,950 fps in cooler weather. The load with the Rem .375 cases is one grain below max for this rifle.

At the other end of the belted chamber population I have a .300 Win Mag on a #1. The chamber is so tight that it does not even require FL sizing and that's with 72 grains of 4350 and a 180. That's over max in some books and the velocity is 3000 fps! So chambers vary a lot in belted cases. That's the way it is.

I would never buy another new rifle with a belted case now that there are better choices. We really don't owe much to Ackley and Weatherby. They should have followed Newton, Mauser, Kalisnakov, Grand, Springfield, Rigby or Schuler and done it right.

[ 06-26-2002, 22:41: Message edited by: Don Martin29 ]