quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:
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If you'll check the current BR records, I believe you'll find that the majority are held by round-bottom actions. The vast majority.

Kinda hard to argue with success.
Regards, Joe

If you will check the records you will also find that the round-bottom actions LOST most of the competitions! The reason being there are simply more of those type of actions available due to the ease of manufacturing and being cheaper to produce. Why go out of ones way to find a "flat-bottom action" when "round-bottom actions" are everywhere you want to be and there is no appreciable difference in shooting accuracy. And even fewer g-smiths like to fool with the CRF because, I suspect, they don't know how to do it properly. If it (the action) were to be used in the field, under harsh conditions, it would be another matter, but it's not. It will be pampered, cleaned and powdered just like a baby's ass.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most round actions used in benchrest placed in sleeves that are flat bottomed? I find benchrest fascinating but to me the rifles are analogous to top fuel dragsters - good at only one thing and that is okay since much of the state of the art barrel and chambering technology is born from this.

But for a different example look at the Wimbledon Cup. Last time I saw a list of rifles used to win the Cup Winchester actions have won more times than any other action. Yes shooter skill plays into this just game as it does in BR. If skill weren't as important in BR than Tony Boyer wouldn't have dominated like he has. Or would he?? I have read many times that he is the best wind-doper by a large margin in the game.

Another piece of anecdotal evidence that needs to be addressed is the notion of The M700 being the ne-plus ultra of action stiffness, especially when compared to the M70. I'm searching through my notes/sources but I have some numbers in print showing the M70 approximately 45% stiffer than a M700 through the receiver ring and about 40% stiffer through the magazine area. For now I will refer to Stuart Otteson's, The Bolt Action: A Design Analysis, where he states, " It's deep girder-like midsection makes it one of the most rigid bolt action receivers ever designed." Unless Remington uses some exotic alloy or heat treatment method(and they don't) this is plausible. I'll keep searching for my numbers since I have better things to do than calculate the moments of inertia for a M70 and M700.

Otteson also lists exactly the same lock time for standard length M70's(post 68') and M700's at 3.0 milliseconds. The pre-64 is slightly slower and the M700 short action is certainly faster at 2.6ms. Now I'm not posting the above to start any kind of fight or stir the pot, as I use both actions, but am interested in getting to actual information rather than anecdotal evidence being tossed around..

Hello DavidReed,
You must be a P.E.
I deal with them all of the time and you sound like one.

You will very seldom see a sleeved action in BR anymore or in the last 15 yrs. The Stolle actions that comprise the majority of BR rifles are flat bottom, Stiller's Viper receiver's are flat bottom, Bat is round.
If the model 70 design were better for accuracy you would see them on the firing line. What very few are out there are probably used by position shooters.
Butch

I don't use either action. Not the Remington because I don't need the accuracy edge in most cases plus replacing the alloy parts is expensive, and not the Winchester because of ergonomics, safety(lack of) and again expense. I personally use Mausers and 1903 Springfields, neither is noted for their accuracy but both carry far, far more braggin' rights.

IMO many folks don't like the Remington because it's not EXclusive enough. It's so available and inexpensive that literally anyone can find an affordable one, and that's the kiss of death for many. Kinda reminds me of one of My Bride's girl friends who makes darn sure that all her friends know just exactly how much her latest dress cost, under the mistaken idea that expensive accessories make her a better person.

Of course we laugh at her behind her back, actually I laugh to her face. IMO the same situation exists with the Ruger No 1, it's UNDOUBTEDLY the best single-shot action available at any reasonable price and also one of the strongest & safest and most attractive actions in the world, but its very availability means that many snobbish folks will sneer at it.

Well, you can sneer at the cheap Remingtons all you want but they'll continue to, on the average, outshoot the Winchesters. They've been doing it since the late '50s and they're about twice as strong and twice as safe as any pre-64 Winchester ever made.

But that's why we have chocolate and vanilla and I wish you every success with your attempts to make a Winchester competitive. Among other things you'll find that the factory pre-64 ignition is sometimes marginal due to the weight & short fall distance of the striker and the strength of the mainspring. Replacement with a titanium striker often results in primer cratering unless a much stronger mainspring is used, around 30 or 32. I don't hafta tell you how I know this, and so far have not had the same problem with Remingtons (knock on wood).
Regards, Joe

Custom rifles for bech rest shooting or other high accuracy competitions are usually Rem 700 actions. The top priced and sought after custom rifles for hunting are built on Pre-64 Mod 70, Mauser 98 or Mauser 98 clones. A custom target rifle has very limited resale market but custom hunting rifles gain in value and are more easily sold (larger market). As an example, try to sell a custom big bore DG rifle on a Mod 700 action.

465H&H

Let's not forget that more Winchesters are found in burned down structures than Remington's. Back when I smoked, me and the Winchesters that were in the shop would sit out back in the shade and have a smoke. I know one thing, they were quick to offer a light!

quote:

Originally posted by DavidReed:
Unless Remington uses some exotic alloy or heat treatment method(and they don't) this is plausible. I'll keep searching for my numbers since I have better things to do than calculate the moments of inertia for a M70 and M700.
..

I don't know the details of the Remington materials or process, but I DO know that the Remington will shrug off many loads that will blow any Winchester sky-high. Again it's anecdotal evidence, but it was provided by my friend Jerry Dykes, a PE/gunsmith employed by the DoD at a large local federal facility we natives call 'The Lab'. All his family are Engineers, I was at the state cow-&-chicken school with his youngest brother.

Jerry was tasked with determining the mechanics and empirical results of maximizing velocities in projectile weapons; his tests and results later led to the magnetic rail gun technology but that's another story.

In the process of developing velocities of more than 5000 fps, he blew up more than 1/2 dozen modern actions of different types; he found that the Remington 600 was the strongest by a large margin. FYI he was finally able to achieve well over 6000 fps but only by first evacuating the bore and then loading to a pressure of ~150,000 psi. He finally got tired of having to disassemble and de-braze the Remington bolt parts after each shot so he made his own action with an artillery-type breech.

He told me that the biggest disappointments were the FN Mauser, pre-64 M70 and Weatherby Mk V. Sako was better but not by much, Savage 110 was almost as good as the Remington 600 but not quite, others fell out in the middle somewhere. Again it's anecdotal but nevertheless significant evidence in my mind.

Moment of inertia? We don't need no stinkin' moment of inertia calcs! What about hoop strength? What about gas handling? What about catastrophic disintegration? What about actual results?

Don't forget that typical armchair calcs by PEs strongly suggest that bumblebees theoretically can't fly. You ever been empirically stung? I have, and I can assure you that they can fly faster than I can run!
FWIW, regards, Joe

JD, It is true that the actual pre-64 M-70 actions were brittle due to metals. However that is no longer true. I will match any of the post 68s against any M-700.

This thread is getting funny---please carry on..

Dave,
You are right. Flat bottom or round bottom does not matter. Hunting and BR rifles have different requirements. I like my Mauser and pre64s for custom hunting and DGR rifles. I use Remington and Remington clones for ultimate accuracy. The rest of you guys can do whatever and I think I will still sleep well tonight.
Butch