I need a lesson, I think. Or just a reality check. I just had a 35 Whelen improved put together on Ruger M77 Hawkeye action by fairly well known gunsmith. I am far from being a seasoned veteran of owning semi-custom rifles, so bear with my ignorance.

I sent the new barrel and brand new barreled action to the smith and included 5 spire point bullets and 5 round nose bullets along with new brass to do the feeding work with. I included all the specifics of barrel length, how I wanted the barrel marked, and my desire for it to feed as reliably as possible.

Fast forward three months, the rifle was done and the price was exactly what was quoted, not a penny more. Upon receiving the rifle, I immediately noticed that the cartridge designation was not as I wanted it and it was misspelled. I specifically stated in the work instruction that I wanted "35 Whelen Imp" just like my Parker Ackley built 35 Whelen improved. on the barrel, but instead it had "35 Whelelen Ackley Improved". The "Whelen" part was misspelled for those who missed it. You could also see the shadow of a previous stamping behind the misspelled one where it wasn't fully removed prior to stamping the misspelled version. I sent a pic to the smith and the smith immediately apologized and said to send it back in one month and he would fix it and get it reblued. But he did mention that the he would not cartridge designation I specified for safety reason. Ok, I understand the safety reason, no problem. In the mean time, he said to shoot it and check function of the rifle till then.

So I firformed some brass using factory 35 Whelen ammo I had on hand as well as some 310gr woodleigh starting loads and noticed immediately that the extracted brass had grooves running radially around the brass about half way up the case. Extraction was a tad sticky as well. Upon closer inspection you could see an odd imprint in the brass that looked like there was a rough protrusion in the chamber. It was on every piece of brass so I new it had to be the chamber. Maybe a chip got hung up while reaming the chamber? I did clean the barrel thouroughly before first firing it.

To check feeding I loaded up some fire formed dummies with spire points and round nose bullets. The spire points fed great, but the round nose would hang up on the breech of the barrel when feeding from the right side of the magazine, unless you cycled the rifle slowly. They would hang up about 75% of the time. I do admit that feeding is VERY important to me, so I tend to be picky.

So I informed the gunsmith of the feeding issues and the funny rings left on extracted cases, which he said he would into it but everything was 100% when it left his hands as he put it. I also sent the pieces of brass that had the rings as well as pics the action when rounds were hanging up.

To wrap this up because I'm tired of typing. The smith said the chamber was just fine and my loads were way too hot, but he is polishing it to make me happy. With the feeding, I was told there was no issue with the feeding and he can't be responsible for improper bolt manipulation. I mentioned I was surprised he couldn't get it to hang up and his reply is that I need to practice and learn how to cycle a bolt action.

Ugh! So maybe I am being to picky and I do need practice? I wasn't slaming the rifle home, I was feeding it just like I would with any follow up shot in the field. So to you gunsmiths(if you've read this far), are my observations and complaints out of line? If they are, then I will just learn how to adjust my attitude. I just needed to vent more than anything I guess. How do you guys test the rifles you build to sign off on their fit an function?

You're concerns are all completely valid. There's ZERO excuse for the misspelling, and since it's non SAAMI cartridge, it's pretty weak to argue that "Ackley Improved" is a safer stamping than "improved".

It does sound like the chamber is rough.

The feeding issues are very, very troublesome. Granted, that's a tricky thing to get perfect with different bullets and COALs, but if the dummies you sent didn't feed perfectly you are spot on to be frustrated.

I'd be livid if I were in your shoes. Hopefully the smith makes it all right. Smiths are in a bit of a tough spot since the don't know what happens once it leaves their hands, but several of the things you mentioned HAVE to be done by the smith. You can't add a high spot to a chamber (well, you could, but it'd be really tough) you can't mess up lettering and not mess up bluing. And it sounds like the ramp needs a little touch up.

I would be seriously pi$$ed. The barrel stamping would raise concerns about the rest of his work.

Don't have a answer for this one but I would be looking for someone else next time.

I appreciate the input. I'm not livid, its just not worth the stress. He's stated he not going to work on the feeding any further, so I've found another company that will get it feeding smooth as glass for me.

It is what it is. I just wanted to be sure that I am not being unreasonable or overly picky. But I will openly admit that I expect any rifle I own to feed 100%(like a DG rifle) and in this case I specifically stated that and I also stated that I would willingly pay for whatever it took(within reason of course). Oh well, live and learn.

Templar

I don't know how far you are from Liberty, MO. If you need a very good gunsmith who has a lot of years of experience give Mark Pursell a call. PM me for contact information.

From the sound of your screen name I believe you may know Hiram Abif.

I don't know, but it sounds like some crap work by a "fairly well know gunsmith".

I'd be glad to fix it for you I am in NE Oklahoma

Nick, PM sent

quote:

Originally posted by Craftsman:
Templar

I don't know how far you are from Liberty, MO. If you need a very good gunsmith who has a lot of years of experience give Mark Pursell a call. PM me for contact information.

From the sound of your screen name I believe you may know Hiram Abif.

Hello Brother Freddy, Been since last years Shilen Swap Meet.
Templar, Nick Hughes is a good guy.

quote:

Originally posted by Craftsman:
Templar

I don't know how far you are from Liberty, MO. If you need a very good gunsmith who has a lot of years of experience give Mark Pursell a call. PM me for contact information.

From the sound of your screen name I believe you may know Hiram Abif.

I do know Hiram. Proud to say I'm the 6th generation.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:

quote:

Originally posted by Craftsman:
Templar

I don't know how far you are from Liberty, MO. If you need a very good gunsmith who has a lot of years of experience give Mark Pursell a call. PM me for contact information.

From the sound of your screen name I believe you may know Hiram Abif.

Hello Brother Freddy, Been since last years Shilen Swap Meet.
Templar, Nick Hughes is a good guy.

Butch, Thanks for the heads-up. I've already "Google stalked" Nick and I've heard the great things you and others have said about his work. Seems like I can't go wrong! He's only an hour away from me so I'm excited to say that I can now spend my money with someone local. Thanks for the help gentlemen!

Glad my brothers have this all ironed out.

Butch, speaking of Shilen Swap Meet, have you heard any plans for this year?

quote:

Originally posted by Craftsman:
Glad my brothers have this all ironed out.

Butch, speaking of Shilen Swap Meet, have you heard any plans for this year?

Freddie, As you know, they bought a very big piece of property with a large building on I45. They are in the middle of a big rebuild of the building and then the move. It will be tough to have it this year with all the matches starting. I will give a good early notice if it can be held.

Just to make sure on, something...I noted you sent "new Brass", then later you tested with "fire formed brass"

The question is..did you send fire formed brass for testing to your gunsmith?

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Just to make sure on, something...I noted you sent "new Brass", then later you tested with "fire formed brass"

The question is..did you send fire formed brass for testing to your gunsmith?

Hi Duane,

I sent both new brass and fire formed brass to the gunsmith. I also highlighted the grooved area on the brass that was of concern to me. The grooves were very localized in one area. Do you think it was likey from a chip getting hung up? I could feel the grooves in the brass with my fingernail.

Can't speculate, but the rifle should have been test fired prior to delivery. That's part of doing business. Therefore, anything peculiar would have been obvious

So the gun is back in my possession for the second time. Feeding still sucks. You can still see the shadow from the other misspelled stamp. I fired some loads to see if the polishing that was done on the chamber changed anything, and it helped a bit. I can still see and feel the grooves though. I've attached some pictures of the brass. It's hard to get it to show up so I sized one piece and it makes the marks really stand out. I may be wrong, but I just can't imagine this as normal. None of my factory rifles do this.

Here is the brass straight from the chamber:



Here is the sized brass(sizer was set .075 above shell holder):



The original brass before the polished chamber looked much, much worse. I'm not one that has lots of money to blow, so it's a little frustrating that I will need to have this reworked. Live and learn. I've contacted Nick and I will be sending my rifle to him when time allows. My wife is due next month, so I won't have much of that for a little bit, LOL.

I appreciate everyone's input and I will keep you updated.

If it extracts well then you can ignore the brass marks. In an effort to save money then fixing the chamber is not necessary. Feeding can be worked on with a die grinder; you can do that yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
If it extracts well then you can ignore the brass marks. In an effort to save money then fixing the chamber is not necessary. Feeding can be worked on with a die grinder; you can do that yourself.

I appreciate the heads up, but as of now my confidence in this rifle is shot. It does extract easier, but it still takes a sharp pull on the handle to fully extract the case. Plus the little protrusion in the chamber, roughly .065" in diameter, is still there making its imprint on the brass. Although it does look smoother in appearance. Thanks to polishing I suppose.

As far as feeding goes, I'd rather not bubba that up and just leave it to a professional.

It's not the fanciest gun, but I do want the function to be top notch.

So here is another drawback to the AI cartridge which no one likes to talk about. Because of the minimal body taper, if a chip is picked up at any point during the chambering process, it will most likely not be removed as the chamber is deepened. If this was a standard Whelen, an eighth inch set back would fix it easily; not so with the AI.
I had to do some remedial work on a 280 AI which appeared to have been chambered with a dull twist drill. A full inch of set back was necessary to clean up this chamber. A standard 280 could have been fixed with 1/4 that much.
In addition, it seems like the minimum taper chambers are more likely to be scored during chambering so greater care has to be taken. One has to be very careful to ensure that the chamber and reamer are absolutely clean. Even with flow-through coolant systems, it is possible for a chip to be picked up on an edge and the chamber scored.
This particular rifle would be fixed right up if re-chambered for the 358 Norma! However, there is every possibility that this 'smith might stamp it 358 Normal Nag. Regards, Bill

+Templar+ - Was the Ruger originally chambered in an '06 or some derivative? Just curious.

Soo..you can complain, but fact is that the gun is toast ? If so, cut your losses and start over or get a refund (and start over)

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Soo..you can complain, but fact is that the gun is toast ? If so, cut your losses and start over or get a refund (and start over)

D. All of the above.

Nothing but silence when I said he could have the barrel if he'd just refund what I paid in labor.

quote:

Originally posted by custombolt:
+Templar+ - Was the Ruger originally chambered in an '06 or some derivative? Just curious.

It was a NIB 30-06.

"A well known gunsmith" Can you elaborate on that?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
"A well known gunsmith" Can you elaborate on that?

No, I do not feel there is anything to gain by doing so. I got the whining out of my system, I think, and I'm ready to get this thing fixed.

Pac-Nor hopefully still has my custom barrel profile saved if need be, but the I'm hoping the chamber will clean up. Luckily there was zero modification done to the action for feeding work, so it's bone stock in that regard.

I did end up bringing an inspection scope from work, kind of like a flexible bore scope. I wanted investigate those protrusions that were causing the concave shaped marks in the brass. I wish I had taken a snapshot but you could clearly see a seam around the protrusions. I took a fine pick and I was literally able to scrape them off, with a fair amount of effort. It was pieces of metal with what appeared to be a white residue under them. Not a clue what it is or why.

That's great. Same case body. No worries there. [/QUOTE]

It was a NIB 30-06.[/QUOTE]

Way to dig in and search for the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by +Templar+:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by shootaway:
I took a fine pick and I was literally able to scrape them off, with a fair amount of effort. It was pieces of metal with what appeared to be a white residue under them. Not a clue what it is or why.