A couple of fellows on this sight have recommended prospective gunmakers to become a tool and die maker first to gain knowledge in machine and metal work before trying to make a living in the custom gun business. The idea is to work on firearms on the side, and develope ones skills for a few years until becoming fully competent. This makes a lot of sense. Can anyone recommend schools for tool and die makers in the western half of the US (preferably in or around Colorado)? What does the job market look like for a tool and die maker, and what kind of pay can one expect? Seems to me like jobs like that are going oversees. Several INFORMED opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Why don't you go to the gunsmithing school in Denver or to Trinidad state.

The one in Denver operates like Wyoming Tech. Intensive 14 months course.

The one in Trinidad is real college and you have to take underwater basketweaving to pass.

I've heard from several gunsmiths that it is hard to make a living until you really know what you are doing, and even then you have to be a really good business man just to get by. I want a trade that I can feed my family with and help me develope my skills at the same time. I don't know if I could make it with just a smithing degree at first, no matter how good I am. I looked at the job board at the Colorado School of trades when I toured their facility, and starting pay was like $12/hr for most jobs. Jon Rigby was offering a job to build stocks at $12.50/hr, and these guys sell their guns for really big money. I could stand to make a little less as a gunsmith, but not much less. The cost of living is just too high.

Your better off just as a toolmaker and maybe a gunsmith on the side at home. Good die/moldmakers will make about 40 to 60K a year in a great area but be ready to move to where the work is the trade is leaving the USA slowly but surely to overseas.

You might try CHI-COM U in Taiwan.

There are more starving unemployed tool and die makers available right now than ever before.

Hate to break the news to you. But I would look for some other career.
Longshot

Matt I am a tool and die maker. I went to a tech school in Tennessee. You should be able to find a decent tech school in your general area. It has been my experiance that a school will teach you the basics, but you will really start learning when you get on the job. If you get a job in the tooling industry and want to be a future gunsmith I would stay away from a place that only builds and repairs dies (to me it is extremely boring). If you become a good toolmaker you can make pretty good money. As far as the trade coming to halt in this country, I don't think so. Hope this may help in some way.

ColoradoMatt: I live in a small town in the GreaterKansas City Metro Area, right in the center of the USA. A local entrepreneur spent most of his business career establishing a precision mold and die making business. He had state of the art equipment and tooling, and a well-paid, highly skilled work force. When he decided to retire, he was unable to sell his business as an operating entity. So the whole works, including real estate, was sold in about 625 separate lots in an auction run by an industrial liquidator. The reason for the demise of this local business is that hundreds of plastics molding factories have been relocated from the USA to countries with super-cheap unskilled labor. The owners of such plants prefer to deal with local vendors of critical tools and materials. I am not making any statement about the total US demand for tool, die and mold makers. But it is worth noting that one US industry that used a lot of dies and molds has drastically shrunk in recent years.

Matt how old are you?

If your young enough to qualify and you can pass the physical and mental exams you should think about joining the military.

The Marine Corps and Army both have gun smiths. The Navy has armorers called Gunners Mates and Machinest called Machinery Repairmen. You might have heard we are looking for some good people.

I have been in for 12 years and I'll make $45 thousand this year. Last year I made more but I lived in a different country than I do now.

You would start out as a E1 or E3 and if you are married you could live in base housing. You would have about $2000 a month in cash plus free housing, free electricity, water and heat. Free medical, free dental for you and your family, not to mention $400,000 life insurance policy for you.

Something to think about. Mark Basner built rifles for the Army prior to becoming a gunsmith. Bill Wiseman built Marine Corps M40 sniper rifles.

Something to think about.

A Gunners mate buddy of mine is now working at Navy SEAL school as a support guy.

Matt,

I'm an old guy so I'm from the old school. My 1960's T&D apprenticeship was served at the Columbus, Ohio, Wesern Electric plant. A great program in a toolroom with about 400 skilled workers with a million years of experience. We built tooling, dies, molds, gages, etc., the "old fashioned way". EDM was just starting to be used. I'm obsolete in today's world.
Today, the classifications have gotten kind of muddied and cross over into what previously had been specialtys. It is so much faster and easier to build extremely accurate tooling with the CNC's used in today's toolrooms.
If you were my son and wanted to go in the path that you have outlined, I'd suggest getting into a fulltime machine tool/machine trades program at a college. Work hard and get real good at CAD, CAM and programming.
When you go into industry, try to find a shop that has some older workers, people that understand tooling and sequence of operations. Those are the areas that I see that are weak in the younger people, today.
It is a lot of fun and can be very rewarding if you are good. I'd suggest that you get into gunsmithing as a hobby, sideline, and see what areas are really interesting to you. The only way that you will make much money at gunsmithing is if you get recognized at a top 'smith in some area. Maybe stock work, maybe metalwork, maybe engraving, or restoration or quality pieces. I love the metalworking part but hate working with wood.
Opinion of an old guy that still has a hobby shop and builds some very accurate longrange rifles.

Matt,
I’m not a machinist, but I am a manager at a fortune 500 Aerospace company that does a fair amount of production work.

My observations:

Skilled machinist are going the way of the Dodo. Most people calling themselves machinists today are really just machine operators and parts loaders.

Most of the machining is done by CNC programs written by programmers who have never turned a handle on a manual Bridgeport.

The highly skilled “Greybeard†machinists we have are a valuable asset, but that experience comes from years of doing precision manual machining. Something unavailable to new machinists coming into the industry and something the programmers are doing a better and better job of replacing.


My opinion,

Pursue a career in a well paying and expanding field, ie. Engineering, Medical, Information Technology, etc.
Use the disposable income derived from this occupation to pursue gunsmithing, fast cars, womanizing, or any other expensive hobbies you fancy.

(I know this isn't what you were looking for but there are many ways to get to where you want.)

Thanks to all for your advice. I guess I'll have to win the lottery if I want to start gunsmithing.

That's kind of a cop out, I hope you don't give up that easily on everything.

You live in Colorado, go to the college or join the military. If it's your dream don't give up for nothing.

I was being sarcastic. Sorry.

There are all kinds of tech schools.....community colleges and trade schools around the country. Tool and die is taught in many of them and it's a good place to gain skills for gunsmithing.

I am among those that recommend one become a gunsmith using T&D skills.....It's a good way to learn not only basics but a lot of finess as well....