How is set back measured on Mauser actions. don't find anything on internet.

You just need a bar the same diameter as the bolt with a small pin installed at 90 degrees to engage the seats. Then use a dial indicator on the end.
You can do a barrelled action this way.
I recently checked an old 1903 Turk that had .003.

quote:

Originally posted by metal:
You just need a bar the same diameter as the bolt with a small pin installed at 90 degrees to engage the seats. Then use a dial indicator on the end.
You can do a barrelled action this way.
I recently checked an old 1903 Turk that had .003.

Just because I'm a moron... you compare the difference between when the pin is at the horizontal position and vertical position? Measuring somehow from the rear?

I think you are correct. All you need to do is orient the pin so it is riding on the lug seat and rotate it past battery to measure any step, and with your indicator reading on the back end. (Barrelled action held in a vise obviously)
It does require a certain amount of finesse.

Do the same thing with a snug fitting "Go" gauge. close the bolt on it and push it back and forth, first against the gauge and then against the lugs.

This is also how you can get a false headspace measurement; feeling is tight when just closing the bolt and seeing the difference when in full lock-up position. Confused now?

Makes perfect sense to this moron! ;-)

You will know when you fire it if it is excessive. Otherwise, don't worry about it. If you are installing a new barrel, I set them up and rotate them in a lathe; dial indicate the locking surfaces; you will see it. But practically, you can see and feel it; do what JK said and that will tell you too. It's not a widespread problem as some suggest. Mostly the Pre WW1 DWM 98s.

Don't do what most do, shoot the thing till the receiver ring blows!












Old soft receivers will set back.

Having owned one defective National Ordnance M1903A3, I would consider any National Ordnance product to be worth only the sum of its GI parts.

The cast receiver on my rifle was so soft, that the receiver lug seat set back under bolt load. Headspace increased and had I continued to fire it, I would have had a cartridge rupture.

When I first purchased it, I took it over to a gunsmith to have the headspace checked. The gunsmith told me that the headspace was excessive. I took it back to the place of purchase. The seller than sent it to a gunsmith who did something. I don’t know what, maybe he cut an extra thread on the barrel.

I don’t remember how many rounds I fired. But it was probably under 200. Might have been less than 100. Early rounds were difficult to extract. Took a bit of effort to raise the bolt. As the number of rounds downrange increased, the more difficult it became to raise the bolt handle. Towards the end, I had to beat the bolt handle to open it. The little light bulb went off in my head and I figured out that the lugs were pounding the receiver seats backward. I was having to size the case with the bolt, to open the bolt. I decided not to shoot the thing anymore.

I traded the rifle plus a RIA 1903 double heat treat on a Ruger #1.

A poorly built, improperly heat treated receiver made of inferior materials does not have to telegraph catastrophic failure. It just might let go. Poof!


This guy had one blow up on him due to the soft receiver stretching.

http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/535...gun-broke.html
The owner reported he had only 76 rounds of factory ammunition before the lug set back caused a cartridge rupture.

The original post was on the old Culver's, which deleted all of its old messages after the update. Luckily I saved the pics.

This young man was very lucky he did not lose an eyeball. I expect he had more facial damage than what you see in these poor camera phone pictures.

And he did nothing that was his fault. He simply fired enough factory ammunition until the National Ordnance receiver failed.






Older Mauser actions, that is those up to WW2 (I don't know the pressure history between the wars) were made for cartridges of 3,000 atmospheres, which is 43,000 psia. And they still cracked lugs with those cartridges because the metallurgy of the period produced inconsistent and weak steels. Nothing you can do with a heat treat is going to change the composition of steel. Post WW2 gunsmiths and gunsmithing companies are selling their services to anyone who will pay. No one really mentioned safety, it was all about performance, and the romance of the Mauser. Developed into a product cult that is still around today. Product cults are real, just say something bad about a Glock, or a M1911. Or an iphone. Today, the smart guys figured they can make more money running opioid pill mills, making millions killing thousands. Anyway, you run these old actions above their service cartridge pressures, you are pioneering in destructive testing, the destruction of you. But if you are a gambler, who lives forever?

Cartridges typically have an allowable stretch of 0.006" on first firing. After that, who knows.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
Don't do what most do, shoot the thing till the receiver ring blows!

Are you typing this at home alone wearing 2 masks and a face shield?

What, if any experience do you have actually working on Mausers?

concerning the OP
Since I have a complete shop, I just pop off the barrel and measure from the rec ring.

Thanks I will put the information to use

Good ol' slamfire. For YEARS this subject has been his hobby-horse.

He’s been banging on about it since at least 2012.

If I believed him, I'd be afraid to fire any of my guns! Well, maybe the ones with Vaseline covered ammo would be safe!

He is relentless in showing destroyed arms that have OBVIOUSLY experienced an over-pressure event (despite whatever is told) evidenced by the brass 'paint' covering everything. Run-of-the-mill case head failures don't do that. I quit reading him when he said mausers were made of rebar quality steel, not even knowing there are some pretty tough grades of rebar.

quote:

Originally posted by copperlake:
He is relentless in showing destroyed arms that have OBVIOUSLY experienced an over-pressure event (despite whatever is told) evidenced by the brass 'paint' covering everything. Run-of-the-mill case head failures don't do that. I quit reading him when he said mausers were made of rebar quality steel, not even knowing there are some pretty tough grades of rebar.

Well, if nothing else, he is entertaining.

quote:

I don’t remember how many rounds I fired. But it was probably under 200. Might have been less than 100. Early rounds were difficult to extract. Took a bit of effort to raise the bolt. As the number of rounds downrange increased, the more difficult it became to raise the bolt handle. Towards the end, I had to beat the bolt handle to open it. The little light bulb went off in my head and I figured out that the lugs were pounding the receiver seats backward. I was having to size the case with the bolt, to open the bolt. I decided not to shoot the thing anymore.

I traded the rifle plus a RIA 1903 double heat treat on a Ruger #1.

So, you traded off a dangerous rifle to get rid of it? That's ethical.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:

quote:

I don’t remember how many rounds I fired. But it was probably under 200. Might have been less than 100. Early rounds were difficult to extract. Took a bit of effort to raise the bolt. As the number of rounds downrange increased, the more difficult it became to raise the bolt handle. Towards the end, I had to beat the bolt handle to open it. The little light bulb went off in my head and I figured out that the lugs were pounding the receiver seats backward. I was having to size the case with the bolt, to open the bolt. I decided not to shoot the thing anymore.

I traded the rifle plus a RIA 1903 double heat treat on a Ruger #1.

So, you traded off a dangerous rifle to get rid of it? That's ethical.

Anxiously waiting his response.

So he fired 100 hard to extract rounds, finally having to beat the bolt open before the light bulb went off in his head?

He then traded it to the poor guy in the photos.

As I said, always entertaining.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
Don't do what most do, shoot the thing till the receiver ring blows!

Are you typing this at home alone wearing 2 masks and a face shield?

What, if any experience do you have actually working on Mausers?

concerning the OP
Since I have a complete shop, I just pop off the barrel and measure from the rec ring.

I may work on this tomorrow, but given that you started off your post with an insult, maybe not.

Oh crap I did not want to start a dumpster fire just figure out how to measure set back.
Not interested in blown up rifles as I don't see how that contributes to the discussion

While at it, I'll add that the Swedish Mauser shown in the first set of supposed damning pics is exactly what happened when I intentionally wrecked two 96's, both with serious overloads. In fact, the one 1916 I did faired better than the 96's. I have a theory as to why, but that is another subject.

Of course, we don't know the whole story and slamfire could do some actual good if he divulged that if he knows. Brass begins to flow (depending on which source you choose) around 6Kpsi. I have pics taken through a dissecting microscope of tiny spherules of brass scattered about in the actions meaning the brass melted on its travels, a mini shot tower, so to speak. This does not happen with an ordinary case head failure. Those little balls of brass are the 'paint' one sees. And as to another of my favorite fables the 'bolt through the head': I couldn't make that happen until I REMOVED both locking lugs. This does not mean that the operator would not have experienced damage to the hand and other sorts of injury.

I am not in any way an advocate of turning a small ring Mauser into a fire-breathing magnum. However, this nonsense must be countered. If they were all hand grenades, we would hear much more about that than the occasional slamfire.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
Don't do what most do, shoot the thing till the receiver ring blows!

Are you typing this at home alone wearing 2 masks and a face shield?

What, if any experience do you have actually working on Mausers?

concerning the OP
Since I have a complete shop, I just pop off the barrel and measure from the rec ring.

I may work on this tomorrow, but given that you started off your post with an insult, maybe not.

Buck up. Personally, I think you're too full of yourself and your relentless years-long jihad is ignorant.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
Don't do what most do, shoot the thing till the receiver ring

Older Mauser actions, that is those up to WW2 (I don't know the pressure history between the wars) were made for cartridges of 3,000 atmospheres, which is 43,000 psia. And they still cracked lugs with those cartridges because the metallurgy of the period produced inconsistent and weak steels. Nothing you can do with a heat treat is going to change the composition of steel. Post WW2 gunsmiths and gunsmithing companies are selling their services to anyone who will pay. No one really mentioned safety, it was all about performance, and the romance of the Mauser. Developed into a product cult that is still around today. Product cults are real, just say something bad about a Glock, or a M1911. Or an iphone. Today, the smart guys figured they can make more money running opioid pill mills, making millions killing thousands. Anyway, you run these old actions above their service cartridge pressures, you are pioneering in destructive testing, the destruction of you. But if you are a gambler, who lives forever?

Cartridges typically have an allowable stretch of 0.006" on first firing. After that, who knows.

so what the story of the rifle on the first pics?

How about Prectl using low carbon steel and case hardening on his new actions - which Rigby decided were the best to use?

And the hundreds of thousands of ex mil (pre wwii) rifles built and endorsed commercially chambered for modern cartridges with SAAMI pressures of 65k psi? Even now (or very recently) you could buy a new rifle from BRNO or Voere chambered in 270 built on a pre wwii action. How can this be if what you say is correct?

And the fact the 270 was introduced in 1924, with many manufacturers including Mauser chambering in it?

Or that the 8x57 that was pretty much designed with the 98 is a rated at 56560psi? Where have you pulled 43000k psi from?

Do you have any evidence that is not circumstantial? As in any trials or scientific fair tests that back up your erroneous assertions? I assume not, as the only studies conducted indicate as plain as day Mauser actions are more than capable of containing the pressures and thrusts of all but the most obscure concept cartridges of peoples imaginations

I've got more than a few rifles in my safe built on Mauser actions.

Maybe I should call in the bomb squad.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
I may work on this tomorrow, but given that you started off your post with an insult, maybe not.

Sorry, I didn't know it was only approved if insults were posted at the end of mesages.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:

Thus proving the natural state of humanity is ignorance, superstition, and denial.

Tell me what type of cell phone the Kaiser used....

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
And yet, the Cultist's believe ancient materials are in fact better than today's. They truly believe that Sigman the Dragon slayer had a magical sword that could cut granite boulders, and still slice a silk handkerchief in the air! If you work in metal technology, you know the steels of today have improved since the 1980's. Bearings keep rolling longer due to smaller and smaller quantities of residuals.

Cultists might acknowledge that bearings have gotten better, but they also believe, nothing today compares to the perfection of Sigman's sword.

In Mausers, as with any others, it can be difficult to tell the difference between setback (plastic deformation) and wear (abrasion). I have seen both. 91,93,95, or 96 Mausers will often split, like the one shown, due to damage done when removing the factory barrel. Regards, Bill