Hello All,

I had posted this under "Classified" but didn't get any response - could someone please help?

*****

I have bought a wooden rifle stock and an incomplete receiver (no bolt, trigger assembly etc) from someone in California. My wife's cousin, who lives over there, has turned some paper sheets into a nice blued pipe and it's matching wooden recess..

My question - how does she go about sending said bits of steel and wood to me in South Africa?

Does she wrap them in bubble-wrap and a cardboard carton and offer burnt offerings to the postal service? Are there any local regulations that have to be satisfied?

Any information and all help will be gratefully accepted.

cheers edi

I'd ship them Fed-EX or UPS, were it me.

Your first problem, though, is that the receiver you bought is still classified as a firearm under U.S. federal law, and as such must be shipped by a Federal Firearms License holder. Also, it now requires an export permit, which won't be granted unless you can provide the proper import permit issued by the RSA.

Violating these provisos is a big-time felony in the 'States...a risk I wouldn't care to undertake myself during the current witch-hunt for terrorists.

I suggest you ask your wife's cousin to go get the advice of a reliable gun dealer in her area, and to let the gun dealer assume all the responsiblity of getting the action to you...if he will.

AC

[ 03-27-2003, 08:22: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ]

Alberta Canuck - hello there. Thanks for that info.

Interesting point, here in South Africa it is the rifled barrel that is considered to be the important bit - the receiver is considered to be a piece of sculptured metal and quite harmless.

The import permit is no problem. To satisfy the FFL, I can also get a letter from my local police station to say that they have no objection to my importing the receiver as spares for my already licenced rifle.

I'll ask my cousin if there is a FFL type near to her and then correspond with him directly.

Once again, many thanks - edi

What part of California is your cousin in? I'll look up the FFL for you...easier for me than you, unless you feel your cousin can handle it. My FFL was charging 10% with a $100. minimum until I negotiated with him, now it's $25.

I bought and shipped a bare old/ new swede mauser reciever to Ca and the bare reciever had to be regitered and FFL paper work, like it was a complete gun. pretty stupid law...

Edi -

So!! That undoubtedly explains why all my Musgraves had the SN on the barrel, rather than the action. Had a heck of a time bringing them from Canada to the 'States when I moved from Alberta to Arizona in the early '80s. Customs folk were all excited that I couldn't show them the SN's on the action.

It was getting dark, snowing heavily, and we were all standing outside looking at the possiblity of having to unload a 28' truck full of guns and ammo onto the Montana prairie, mixed in with some furniture. But, as I had all the proper paperwork, they finally relented after looking at just 6 or 8 rifles. I guess the fact the the Musgrave micrometer sights were also serial numbered to match the rifles convinced them that there must be a number SOMEWHERE on the action.

Now, of course, the receivers are all correctly post-entry serial numbered, at least on mine, just to be safely within the law.

Good luck with your shipping endeavor. Hope the Feds have finally straightened out the export permit boondoggle... When I last appled for an export permit, BATF told me I had to get the permit from the State Department. State Department told me I had to get it from BATF. Neither would ever admit any responsiblity for exports. I finally gave up and had a dealer with shops in both countries handle it, transferring it from himself in this country to himself in the other country.

From what I have heard lately, export permits have been worked out by the Gov't and are apparently fairly straight-forward now.

Best wishes,

AC

Edi, there is often confusion on this issue here. An FFL holder in not required in normal circumstances to send a firearm. The receiver has to have an FFl though and do the paperwork when you dealing out of state. In your case you are not even in the US and need a firearm exporter to do the dirty work. Dogrib can tell you some horror stories on that account but that so far looks like it was due to lost mail, expensive lost mail.

I don't know how long the process takes but it is not a quick one. Do you even have UPS and Fedex down there?

Hi All - let me recap. what we have here.

1.0 The purchaser has to have a FFL in order to purchase the firearm. (No problem - here we have had to apply for a licence for near on a century. Also I have a South African licence for that model rifle that I can quote/copy etc just to muddy the waters)

Note: It's just one of those things like death and taxes - no great sweat).

2.0 I need to have an import licence to bring the bits into the South Africa. (Again no problem the "Revenooers" want their slice of my pie. See note above)

2.1 I must make sure that my cousin gets a receipt from the seller

so far so good - now

3.0 To ship it out of the states it appears that one needs a near relative to the Archangel Gabriel to generate the export permit. I take it that UPS or Fedex can arrange this? We have both represented here in Cape Town - I'll give them a call - but in the mean time which government department is the real one?

4.0 Anything else?

thanks all - edi

Edi, you do not need an FFL to buy one. Here in the US you can buy direct from an individual if you are withing the same state. If you buy from a dealer you have to go through the background check. None of that applies to you.

So far your wife's cousin has purchased this using your money. He now wants to send it to you in RSA. That has to be done through an exporter. No FFL involved on your wife's cousnins end. He needs to find someone locally who is a firearms exporter. I would suggest the cousin contact either Rigby or Butch Searcy for the name of an exporter and any other pertinent hoops they have to jump through, blood type, shoe size, proctologists report (ouch).

John Rigby

Searcy

Edi, e-mailed 3 FFL's in Santa Rosa to you, good luck!

Hi Customsox - thanks for the gen.

Not so much on that proctology lark. My hunting mate is a Urologist who has an appointment with a procto-bod tomorrow and the theatre is booked for Sat. Hope it's not serious - his heart isn't too good and he's dubious about coming hunting again.

Guys - let's not ever get old.

Bruz - triplets received - many thanks

cheers edi

Good luck finding an exporter who can obtain a permit to export a firearm without being an FFL holder. There may be lots of them, but I've not yet met one.

You can easily obtain a permit (a Form 6) to import a firearm for personal use (not resale), but even there the application requires the name and a copy of the FFL of the dealer through whom it will be 4473'd. I've done this numerous times.

I know when I applied for an export permit, one of the questions asked of me was what my FFL # was.

It may be possible to do it without the FFL, but as the rifle (or in this case, the numbered part of the rifle) is being sent out of state in a transfer of ownership (not for repair or upgrade)and not to/through a U.S.-licensed FFL, it may be very difficult.

Good luck, anyway.

Mr. Searcy, of course is FFl'd as a manufacturer, and would be a good bet if you can't find someone else experienced in doing it. He also has made some pretty good double rifles, if you're so minded and have a crate of George Washington's likenesses lying about unneeded.

AC

[ 03-29-2003, 04:48: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ]

It is fairly easy to ship guns and gun parts, as long as the country bring shipped to, is not on the restricted list. I have shipped to England with no problem, and USPS is easist, by using a FFL. The Post Office has a Form 6, which is a customs declaration,that has to be attatched to the package. That said, the big problem in the US is importing a gun, or can be, depending on the BATF person who checks the application.

Note here that the BATF Form 6 and the USPS Form 6 are NOT the same form. The BATF form is a permit to import a specific rifle of a specific serial number (or a few personal rifles and serial numbers). The post office form is simply a customs declaration.

Still, U.S. law does now require an export permit to export guns (the numbered part thereof) regardless of value or gun parts of more than $100 gross value. I know the law has been updated yet again, but haven't seen the update(s). For some reason, I think I recall hearing that telescopic sights, regardless of value, now require an export permit also.

My suggestion is to go to the BATF.gov website and ask them for the latest regulations and/or interpretations. Be sure to print out the answer(s) you get, and save them in hard copy. Could save some big-time future legal problems.

AC

[ 03-30-2003, 01:17: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ]

Edi,
After 1997 the licensing for the export of firearms was under the control of the Commerce department and a license was required for that. Recently (after Sept. 11th) it was changed. The State Department's Office of Defense Trade Controls now issues licenses for the exportation of firearms. The license costs $600 a year and does not require the holder to have an FFL. Rifle scopes manufactured to military specs fall under the act, while other scopes do not. There is a one time expemption for an exportation into a country for an individual. May work for you.

Here a few places you can find some information if you are interested.

SCI Informational Site

ODTC Site

If you wish to dig through some of the regs, you can find them here.

You find in this section that your sporting rifle is considered a weapon of war and regulated as such.

If you do not want to get a Master's Degree in firearms exportation, and I suspect that you do not (duh), have your cousin get ahold of someone who works with this everyday as I mentioned. Good luck my friend and yes we are as mired down in paperwork and forms as you are or worse.

[ 03-30-2003, 05:54: Message edited by: Customstox ]

Hell Guy's - it might just be quicker and easier to machine my own.

I've found ATF Form 6 Part 1 - "Importation of Firearms"

I've found ATF Form 9 - "Exportation of Firearms"

and I came across this howler in the Department of Wildlife Conservation and Government Affairs - or maybe they are serious.

*****

Exporting Firearms From U.S.
Exporting Permanently

If exporting hunting firearms permanently, use DSP5 license, which can be ordered on the State Department's Office of Defense Trade Controls. The cost of the silence is $600/year, but a one-time exemption is allowed if a letter of explanation is included with the form, along with import documentation for the country to which you are importing the firearm.

*****

I suppose any Department that says, quite openly, that it deals in Government Affairs should be commended for it's openness and honesty in asking for a fee of $600 to keep mum about them!

Nice of them to allow you one affair. Do you think that they want that Letter of Exemption written in French?

But WTH has all that got to do with exporting a firearm?

cheers edi :-)