The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing JBelk, tube magazine explosions.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| JBelk, tube magazine explosions. | Login/Join |
| one of us |
You're the man on gun blowups. Got any pictures or links to pictures on what happens when the cartridges detonate inside the tube? | ||
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| one of us |
there was an article on this in a recent gun digest, I'll go look for it... and I'm back: Gun Digest 2002 "Tubular Mgazines... ARE Safe" by R.W. Ballou, p.72. -tincan | |||
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| one of us |
Tincan, that's what started this. Tube magazines are safe within their limits. When someone igores those limits, usually by feeding them FMJ, they can go off with a helluva bang. And an article that minimizes that risk is likely to cost someone fingers or a hand. | |||
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| one of us |
I sure don't want my fingers around the forend when one lets go....Not even worth the risk and why would one want to use any spitzer in these guns, it gains nothing in the calibers they come in... | |||
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| one of us |
Doesn't have to be spitzers, Ray. There was a rash of blowups with .44 FMJs back in the mid to late '70s. Those even had a pretty fair sized meplate. Now there is this article about how safe tube mags are and some folks are taking it too seriously. I don't doubt that tube mags are safe with any bullet with a fair amount of exposed lead and a RN or FN, but I can think of a number of ways the unwary could get into trouble real quickly. Cheapie pulled FMJs for the .30 Carbine, the various 9mm, and .45 ball would be way up on my list of stuff not to put in a tube mag. Also there would be some of the JHPs with no exposed lead and a jacket that extends to or rolls over the lip of the HP. I wouldn't even use some of the more pointed RN cast designs if I had cast them from straight linotype or water quenched them or heat treated them. Anyway, I hope JBelk gets back soon and has some pictures for us on the consequences of being wrong. | |||
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one of us |
Leftoverdj Hi, found you The article in question, the author states he would not fire pointed bullets in a tube mag, but then goes on to show how safe a tube mag really is. Nothing to do with FMJs He took a bullet, and drove it on to a seated primer with a hammer, messed up the bullet that's all. He then took a Marlin tube mag, loaded it with cartridges, and fired the back one remotely. It pushed the bullets into the cases of the cartridges in front, and did no damage to the tube mag at all. The remotely fired cartridge split, and did not even burn all it's powder. I'm the one that asked Leftoverdj for the pics of the exploded tube mags. Not that I don't believe it, I just like the full story. Nice to have all the facts. Then there is the matter of Barnes's new "X point" for the 30-30. Solid copper rests on the primer in front (at least partially) I certainly DO NOT recomend the use of FMJ or spire points other than single loaded in tube mags. Niether does the Gun Digest articles author. [ 07-19-2003, 14:22: Message edited by: John Y Cannuck ] | |||
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| one of us |
What a co incidence! I was just working on the equations of how much energy is available to ignite primers in a tube magazine. Load book legends are a hobby [err obsession] of mine. Is there any evidence that anyone has ever got a primer to go off from recoil in a tube mag? I would guess not in a 25-20, but 25-20 bullets are flat nosed. All I have to work with is a model 94 Win 30-30. I am calculating that the max 30-30 energy is like an 18" drop of the stack of ammo. I plan on doing all testing with drops, and then verifying with a rifle. Any more background would be appreciated. | |||
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| one of us |
quote:John Interesting stuff... So he was TRYING to get a blowup in a tubular magazine, but had no sucess? Very interesting... Not that I would lower myself to using a tubular mag in anything but a shotgun, of course! ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| one of us |
quote:Only some dead rifles. Which, to my mind, is better proof than any test you or anyone else can devise. The best theory I have run across is that inertia causes several of the cartridges to compress the magazine spring as the rifle recoils. When the rifle stops recoiling, the spring slams those cartridges back. The second cartridge in the mag is the most often the one that goes off. I, too, would doubt it could happen in a .25-20. Simply not enough recoil or cartridge mass. I am quite sure it can happen in a .44 mag carbine because it has happened. Were I hellbent to duplicate this, I would skip the rifle and just use a mag tube with spring and some cartridges with only a primer as a charge. One fired primer in a hundred thousand trial would prove it could happen, but a hundred thousand trials without a fired primer would not be proof that it could not happen. Kinda silly anyway since we know that it had happened. | |||
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| one of us |
I want to know where the edge is. I am curious about 110 gr V-max in 30-30. | |||
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| one of us |
I think that the possibility of this happening depends a lot on the way the cartridge ends up sitting in the magazine. Rimmed cartridges could sit straight to canted depending on how much rim they have and how much case taper they have. For example a 30-30 in a magazine tube might sit with the bullet touching the outer part of the rim most of the time. You could get away with pointed bullets for a long time until one doesn't sit normal. Bullets with flat points might not sit flat againist the rear of the next cartridge all the time. What we need is a plastic tube the same size as the mag tube and the spring and follower and observe how the cartirdges stack. | |||
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| one of us |
Leftoverdj, I am not sure if the worst is when the energy gets stored in the mag spring, or when the stack of ammo hits the front of the tube. But the ammount of energy avaiable is .5 x the mass of all the cartridges in the stack minus one x the peak velocity of the recoiling rifle. That maximum theoretical energy can be simulated with a drop of that max mass. I don't need to use the right cartridge, just the right mass, velocity, primer, and bullet point. I have not experimented yet, but if I seat of the pants think about the foot pounds in cocking a hammer on a '94, that would be less energy than dropping 6 rounds for 18", so I may very well learn that the world needs flat pointed bullets in 30-30s. | |||
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| one of us |
Just to stir the pot a little: What would you expect of polycarbonate spitzer tips (Ballistic Tip, V-Max, etc) in a tubular magazine in terms of both bullet nose deformation and potential to ignite primers? | |||
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| <Stoneybroke> |
Interesting topic. Back in the fifties, my first rifle was a Remington pump in 35 Rem. Rifle had a spiral tube magazine and supposedly could be used with pointed bullets. Remington loaded 150 grain spire points for years, in 35 Rem. All of the 35 Rems that I have seen were the above mentioned Remington pumps or Marlin levers. Stoney | ||
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| one of us |
About 30 or more ago years ago Elmer Keith had an article in G & A with photos of a M 71 that had been reworked to 450 Alaskan (I think). It had been subject to in-magazine cartridge firing as a result of recoil. My memories of the pictures are a little fuzzy but I seem to recall that significant damage had been done to the forend and magazine tube. Don't recall if the shooter suffered any injury or not. If anyone is a collector of the old issues of the magazine they might be able to shed a little more light on this. | |||
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| one of us |
check out p. 126, L.R. Wallack, The Deer Rifle (Winchester Press 1978) Ruger .44 Mag carbine whole forend blown to splinters mag tube ruptured torn to pieces every cartridge in mag went off, Hornady round nose full jackets. Very impressive and scary photograph. No injuries, a deliberate test shot. | |||
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| <Ben H> |
Stocker: For an in-depth explanation of this particular incident, see Elmer Keith's "GUN NOTES" published by Safari Press. This is a two-volume set and I believe it's mentioned in the second book. The person this happened to is alive and well and living in Idaho, at least he was a couple years ago when I last spoke to him. Good Shooting, Ben H | ||
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