quote:

Originally posted by 1 Shot Hunter:
Isn't it redundant? Did gun makers of the time do it to replicate the barrel bands of the military arms?

Today it would be but not then, the idea of a free floating barrel was a long way off. Look at the G&H 7mm and notice the barrel band which has the sling swivel attached to it. Many believe that the barrel should be attached to the forearm. Some makers used a screw into the barrel, nowadays we do it different.

Many Hoffman rifles will be found with carved stocks, some like them others don’t.
The Bear was the Hoffman trademark.

That early Griffen rifle looks GREAT after the repair. I think she looks just fine now and does not need to be refinished.

The first Hoffman you posted sure looks nice too. Please keep the pics coming. As I have said before, these guys paved the way for the custom makers of today. You are preserving valuable historical articles for anyone today who is into custom guns. Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
Greg, then would the rest of the stock be especially thin relative to a "normal" stock? A .30-06 should not take a lot of beef I would think.

If the rest of the stock is thinner then I can see the functionality being a lighter rifle which makes sense. Form with function is more attractive than just simply adding geometric designs for the heck of it.

Brent

Many of the European rifles of that era were very slim as you can see from some of the great photos on this thread. They remind me some of the early muzzle loaders in this country where the makers kept the wood very thin.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Petrov:
Many Hoffman rifles will be found with carved stocks, some like them others don’t.
The Bear was the Hoffman trademark.


[IMG]


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/mjpetrov/grip.jpg[/IMG]

I wouldn't commission a rifle with carving but I sure wouldn't pass one up a nice used one if it was nicely done either.

Schoverling Daly & Gales, New York City, made a name for themselves selling what today we call the “Prussia-Daly†shotgun. In the 1930’s they tried to enter the custom rifle market with a rifle made in Germany. With over twenty-five years of looking I’ve only seen about a half dozen. This one is in caliber 7x57mm. Although
I'm not sure of the maker the workmanship is outstanding if you disregard the Moose on the receiver that looks like a milk cow with horns.


The first time I saw an ad for the new “Daly-Mauser†I about had a runaway. These will never be confused with the new Daly Mauser.

Your turn now, how about a little feedback regarding the pictures. A full length picture gives an overall idea of the rifle but unless it’s a big picture a lot of the detail is lost. If you’re looking at rifle in a book or article how much of the rifles details do you want to see. Unless it’s for a cover I’m not into photographing the rifle with other things so have done very little of that. Would you like a different angle or ? Do they all start to look alike after a while?

Michael,

My .02 worth. As an avid (or is that rabid) enthusiast, I like to see a full view which gives me the perspective of a guns lines. Then I like the close-ups that show the detail that makes that gun unique and shows the workmanship. Unfortunately that sometimes involves a lot of photos. That however is what “I†want. Those photos with the written description are what I really appreciate. They enable me to really get a “feel†for what is there. I was discussing the idea of me writing magazine articles with John Wooters about 30 years ago and he told me then that pictures sell. He felt that there were a large number of readers that in reality didn’t read and that a well illustrated article would sell even if the writing was mediocre. I never put it to the test, but it was an interesting perspective. I also come from a family with a deep photographic background (Fondren Camera in Houston for those that knew the business) and that may cloud my opinions. I think the photos that you have presented in this and the Springfield thread are fantastic at doing just what I mentioned. Your use of backgrounds to set the gun apart is excellent and the uncluttered photos are just what is needed. I know I have/would spend my $$ for that type of book. Keep ‘em coming, they are appreciated for sure. I actually save each page of these as a web page so that I can look at it and the photos later on. This allows me to “enlarge†a photo if necessary to look at the detail for my future projects. Hard drives and CDs are cheap storage media these days.

Michael,
Your photo presentaion is wonderful! Thank You.

Thaine said it well. Your coverage allows us to get the whole perspective of the piece and then the details. Well done. I hope you have more in store for us!

brayhaven wrote about how thin the stocks were on some of these older gems. Thats one of the really neat, defining characteristics of some of the old shcool stocks.
I picked up a BRNO 21H at a gunshow recently and loved the way it felt and mounted. A Mauser Guild rifle was much the same. Makes most of todays modern offerings seem like they need to go on a diet.

Anyway, thanks again for the photos. If you have more, there's a willing audience! BT

quote:

Your turn now, how about a little feedback regarding the pictures. A full length picture gives an overall idea of the rifle but unless it’s a big picture a lot of the detail is lost. If you’re looking at rifle in a book or article how much of the rifles details do you want to see. Unless it’s for a cover I’m not into photographing the rifle with other things so have done very little of that. Would you like a different angle or ? Do they all start to look alike after a while

Mr Petrov

I think the quality of your photos is outstanding, you really have mastered the glare problem that is so common. I have no suggestions about the photos.

When I look at a rifle in my hands, I seldom just look at it from a direct right angle. I get a better feel for the "lines" of the gun by looking from the pad or buttplate forward. It helps me to see the symetry and shape. You might try a few photos from the ends to see if that will show off the gun in a different perspective. (I do not photograph anything, so take these suggestions with that in mind).

Thanks for all the great pictures, I look forward to adding your next book to the ones I have.

Roger

From an artistic standpoint, you really need to be able to see both sides of the gun in full length shots. A gun is like other works of art where you need to let your eyes flow over it and good pieces will have certain artistically correct aspects. After the initial viewing, then the details need to be studied.

Steve Hughes' "Custom Rifles in Black and White" is the best book I have ever seen for gun photography. HE gices the full views, and then focuses on things that a gunmaker would want to see. No other book I have seen comes close to matching his selection of pictures, at least from a gunamker's perspective.

William Heddrick is very good at tripping shutters with guns in front of them. His work in "The Double Gun Journal" and in Precision Shooting is always very good. He typically focuses in on portions of the guns and rifles. I have been studying his work for a couple fo reasons. One, I have a ton of it with my complete set of DGJ's. Secondly, his shots are artistically correct and make quite an impact.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
I use 3 parts rottonstone to 1 part boneblack. Mix that with the finish and make a mud with it. Rub it in the grain. When it dries (about 24 hours) wet sand and repeat as necessary till the grain is full. You could also just use sanding dust from a piece of ebony wood.

Here is another I've done this way. This one has some figure.

Terry

I really like this look! Can you explain what "boneblack" is and where I can get some? It's not something I normally put in the shopping cart... Thanks.

Thanks for the feedback guys, I have spent a lot of hours looking at B&W by SDH. Steven has been a big help with good advice, I talked with him before I bought my last camera. If you look at his photo setup in the back of the book it’s not unlike mine and that’s no accident. The truth of the matter and one reason for this and the 03 photos is I want others to see these makers’s work in color.

I think the full length pics are a must, one from each side. I also like closeups of things that might be unique to the rifle. One area that always intrigues me is the nose of teh comb. The Germans had a habit of leaving some extra material at that point. I can't explain it very well but when you look at a few you can see what I mean.

Anway, thanks for taking the time to post these great pics.

This action I believe came off a Westley Richards (I can’t recall the proper name) express style rifle, it has the three digit number on the left receiver wall, the turned up bolt handle and the massive front action screw head. It was sent to Niedner and has a .400 Niedner barrel on it then to G&H for the stock.

The .400 Niedner is the .35 Newton blown out to .40 caliber shooting the same 300 grain bullet used in both the 405 Winchester and 400 Whelen but at 2700 fps. I have been afraid to use the older brass so I fire-formed 375 H&H brass. Now that Ruger has brought out the 375-Ruger which looks like Newton brass to me and if it ever becomes available I’ll try some.

Michael,

Thanks for such a fantastic thread. I hope it's far from being over. The pictures as well as the rifles are just out of this world. I love getting to view the whole gun from both sides and then all the close ups of the different and unique features. It's similar to catching a glimpse of a beautiful woman, and wanting to see more. I've been wondering if you were going to post more pictures of some of the rifles like the Hoffman. I suppose I post too many of each gun but I like to see how the cheek piece is made and also the bolt. I also like to see how the bottom metal is done and the top of the action as well as the sighting arrangement. You have some rare and beautiful rifles in amazing condition, it's been a treat just to see them. You have fueled many discussions at our place.

quote:

Originally posted by daleatkins:
Michael,

Thanks for such a fantastic thread. I hope it's far from being over. The pictures as well as the rifles are just out of this world. I love getting to view the whole gun from both sides and then all the close ups of the different and unique features. It's similar to catching a glimpse of a beautiful woman, and wanting to see more. I've been wondering if you were going to post more pictures of some of the rifles like the Hoffman. I suppose I post too many of each gun but I like to see how the cheek piece is made and also the bolt. I also like to see how the bottom metal is done and the top of the action as well as the sighting arrangement. You have some rare and beautiful rifles in amazing condition, it's been a treat just to see them. You have fueled many discussions at our place.

+1

I'm really uplifted by seeing these great photos and reading Michael's words, plus all of the replies. As a result, I laid a mandate on my son down in the Detroit area. His mission is to keep his eye open for any old rifles like these that my be available down there. His Pop will be interested in buying an older Hoffman, G&H, or a Bob Owen Springfield Sporter. A Shelhammer would work too, but the buddy of mine up here who has a half dozen of them ain't selling..

Don

Not to get technical but the pictures were taken in early spring and the rifles are not close to hand for different or more pictures. I'm going through the pictures I have and not a lot of Mauser stuff left, sorry. I have a couple more that I'll post and if someone has a pre-war maker that they have an interest in and I have pictures I'll post them. Mauser or Springfield, if you know of a maker and have an interest I'll see what I have.

This is a light varminter or a heavy sporter in caliber 257 Roberts. Barrel by Niedner stock by Shelhamer, Niedner side mount with Hensoldt scope. Set up with target blocks for a target type scope as well as the Lyman 48 receiver sight. One gun does it all!

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
I use 3 parts rottonstone to 1 part boneblack. Mix that with the finish and make a mud with it. Rub it in the grain. When it dries (about 24 hours) wet sand and repeat as necessary till the grain is full. You could also just use sanding dust from a piece of ebony wood.

Here is another I've done this way. This one has some figure.

Terry

I really like this look! Can you explain what "boneblack" is and where I can get some? It's not something I normally put in the shopping cart... Thanks.

Boneblack is carbonized charcoal. You can get it at any place that sells eye of newt and bat wings , honest........... Nah, you can get it at Brownells or Midway usa. Also pick up a copy of David L Westbrook's book Professional Stockmaking. It explains the process in detail and I'm sure you'll find a lot of other useful stuff in there too.

A public apology for hijacking Michael Petrov's most excellent thread. I bought his book Custom Gunmakers of the 20th Century and I'm really enjoying it.

Terry

Michael Petrov:
Michael: I've used .375 Ruger Brass sized to my .416 Newton (which is quite similar to the old .400 Newton or
.400 Neidner, except .416 instead of the .405 WCF bore).
The body size of the .375 Ruger is near the same as the .30 Newton or .35 Newton cases, except the
shoulder of the .375 Ruger is further forward, case a little longer too.
Also, Marc Jamison of Jamison Brass is supposed to bring out new Newton Brass by the end of this
month & the .35 Newton new brass would even be easier for your .400 Neidner.
Also, the .375 Ruger can be sized down to .35 Newton. Only one pass through a .35 Newton die, then
trim to length.

Best Regards,

Tom Obuhanych from Cody

ps. My .416 Newton will do all the .416 Taylor does, 2350 fps with a 400 gr. bullet, maybe more (still
experimenting) & about 2500 fps with a 350 gr bullet...also still experimenting as the custom rifle is
still new.

Best Regarda,

Tom

Tom,
Great, where can I get some Ruger brass? I checked a few months ago and no one had it. Cylindrical would be much better, it that what Jamison will be making? Is so do you have contact info? Thanks, MP

The overall lines, drop of the stock, snabel, etc. of the Fred Adolf Rifle shown is very similar to the
original Newton Rifles (1st model)...mostly because Fred Adolf designed the Newton Rifle stocks...except they
were a production item, and not anywhere as high quality of the custom Adolf Rifle shown.
But, its apparent from the photos...the lineage of the Adolf design in the Newton Rifles..I own a few.

Best Regards,

Tom

Michael:

You can't actually get .375 Ruger Brass yet...I should have been more clear on this. I had to buy the loaded
.375 Ruger cartridges, box of 20. Pull the bullets, empty the case & then get the brass! The reason I did
this was because Hornady told me the brass itself wouldn't be available, probably not for at least a year!
So, my curiosity got to me & I bought the loaded rounds for the brass...expensive that way! But it satisfied
my curiosity, as I expounded that Vernor Gipson had necked up .35 Newton to .375 a long time ago & was of the
opinion, Hornady used the same idea for their .375 Ruger. I was mostly right...the body is so close to a Newton as you had thought, I think I got 1 thousand difference only...but the shoulder is further forward. I suspect
(although no one will ever know for sure)...that Hornady made the shoulder further forward just to make a small
difference, so that Newton guys like me couldn't claim they just copied a Newton wildcat of yesteryear.
Anyhow, sorry for the extra verbiage...but
Marc Jamison is making .256 Newton, .30 Newton & .35 Newton fully formed new brass. Its already listed by
Midway (web site catalog), Huntingtons, Buffalo Arms & Graf. Not cheap, but according to what I've been told by guys who use Jamison Brass in other cartridge cases, high, good quality.
Just go to Midway's web site & go to the brass section & look for Newton Brass...Midway says it will be available by June 30th. Its what Jamison also told me. I have some on backorder.
The .35 Newton Brass would be perfect for your .400 Neidner...just neck it up, of course.
Best Regards,
Tom from Cody
I got my loaded .375 Rugers from Lock, Stock & Barrel (Valentine, Nebraska...close to Wyoming & fair prices)
The darned bullets were hard to pull...probably made so due to the recoil of the .375 that might pull the bullets forward in a magazine rifle from recoil, but I got 'em!

I think Hornady is interested in selling off the loaded .375 ctgs. first...they have a big stockpile...and from my
knowledge of guys who hunt Africa (at least friends of mine)...they use factory loads, don't reload.
So...my guess is so do others, rather than reload. Anyway, Hornady told me the brass wouldn't be available until
at least a year in the future...I assume its marketing strategy, etc.

But, I would go with Jamison brass. It should be out soon.

Best Regards,

Tom

quote:

Originally posted by white bison:
The overall lines, drop of the stock, snabel, etc. of the Fred Adolf Rifle shown is very similar to the
original Newton Rifles (1st model)...mostly because Fred Adolf designed the Newton Rifle stocks...except they
were a production item, and not anywhere as high quality of the custom Adolf Rifle shown.
But, its apparent from the photos...the lineage of the Adolf design in the Newton Rifles..I own a few.

Best Regards,

Tom

Well then you should be looking for a Adolph-Newton

Thanks for the "Adolf Newton" photo...makes me want to send my Newton Rifle out for embellishments!
Newton did offer 'factory options' at small additional costs...better wood, cheekpiece, etc. etc. You see very few of these with the extras.
The one in the photo is the most highly embellished Newton I've seen.
A point that is often missed...everyone oohs & aahs about the fine workmanship of the classy custom rifles...
Me Too!...but what is very neat, if you look at the drop of the custom Adolf Rifle, and have ever picked up to
handle one like that & the Newton Rifles..the rifle comes to your shoulder & the iron sights line up like magic!
Makes you feel you couldn't miss with that style rifle. The first time I showed my original Newton rifle with the Adolf stock...the long time gunsmith raised it to aim & remarked how naturally it fitted...
The point being...not only workmanship, and embellished rifles...but the design itself was carefully thought out to make a simply wonderful fitting, aiming rifle. My Newton comes to the shoulder, sights line up...just like
another extension of your body!
So, other than 'eye candy'...the makers knew something about great design too!
This point may be apparent to some, but I'll tell you...if you put one of these to your shoulder...you'll discover something simply wonderful!
Best Regards,
Tom

Which always makes me wonder...why the big gun companies don't try & make a "lively" handling rifle with thought of good stock design...probably too buzy trying to sell 'ultra mags' or just something to sell. Yet, as this thread shows...the custom gun makers have this tenet in mind when they make their fine rifles.
Tom

To answer your question WB, most folks crawl the stock so bad they need very straight stocks and really low scope mounts. I have never been a bad "scope craweler" and quickly realized when shooting offhand almost every day I did better with my head even more erect. Then I had a series of physical problems which made it impossible to be a bad crawler. I HATE ultra low mounted scopes and arrow-straight stocks.

The gun makers are producing what the overwhelming majority of the American shooting public want. It does not help that every month in the gun rags writers tell people the only way to shoot is with your cheekbone pressing down so hard you actually dent the stock, and the only proper way to mount a scope is so low you can't slide a cigarrette paper between the objective lens and barrel. They make it sound like folks of yesteryear and people in other countires today who shoot with a more erect head position are 100% wrong, clueless, and stuck in the Dark Ages. The writer way is the only way in their book. What gets me is they state it has cold hard fact, as opposed to their opinion. One reason why I dropped all of my subscriptions.

THe older I get, the more I like drop and dimensions like you are speaking of!

After the Hoffman Arms closed their doors in Ardmore, OK Eric Johnson and John Dubiel went into business for a short time then Eric Johnson returned to CN, and John Dubiel stayed in business in Ardmore. This is a John Dubiel marked 30-06, if you will compare this rifle to the Hoffman you will see that he continued the same style.

I would take an M98 Hoffman, or that Dubiel, over a G&H, I think. I really like the clean lines and oval, shadowlined cheekpiece.

That Dubiel is just beautiful.

Well, I agree with you, Marc. I know when I pick up my Newton Rifle & shoulder it...it all fits right, feels
right, lines up...and the rifle is lively. Of course the stock was designed by Fred Adolf...a Master.
The custom rifles, Michael has shown has the same great qualities...I can look at the photos & envision how
the rifle would feel and line up when shouldering...but handling them is even more convincing.
I like the model 35 Lyman sight shown on one of Michael's custom Mausers...I have one of those sights...and
prefer the peep attachment on the left side as shown.
I understand those 35 Lyman sights are getting scarce nowdays.
Best Regards,

Tom

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
I would take an M98 Hoffman, or that Dubiel, over a G&H, I think. I really like the clean lines and oval, shadowlined cheekpiece.

That Dubiel is just beautiful.

A lot of the Hoffmans were made by John Dubiel who did very fine work. It took a lot of years of searching to find a Dubiel marked rifle. Not to long ago I learned that when Eric Johnson left that John Dubiel made the barrels from then on.

I'm working with some of the Dubiel family members and hope to have a "Dubiel" article in the future.

quote:

Your turn now, how about a little feedback regarding the pictures. A full length picture gives an overall idea of the rifle but unless it’s a big picture a lot of the detail is lost. If you’re looking at rifle in a book or article how much of the rifles details do you want to see. Unless it’s for a cover I’m not into photographing the rifle with other things so have done very little of that. Would you like a different angle or ? Do they all start to look alike after a while?

My preference would be two full length shots to get the lines of the rifle and then 2-3 close ups of the action or other details.
I agree SDH's book is the best thing out there but, it, like many others, suffers from my pet peeve, discussing some detail at great length but not providing a photo of same detail.
Putting accoutrements and such in the photos would only detract from a book such as what you are proposing.
JMHO

ps- I SO need to get some rifles or pics to you!

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
I use 3 parts rottonstone to 1 part boneblack. Mix that with the finish and make a mud with it. Rub it in the grain. When it dries (about 24 hours) wet sand and repeat as necessary till the grain is full. You could also just use sanding dust from a piece of ebony wood.

Here is another I've done this way. This one has some figure.

Terry

I really like this look! Can you explain what "boneblack" is and where I can get some? It's not something I normally put in the shopping cart... Thanks.

Boneblack is carbonized charcoal. You can get it at any place that sells eye of newt and bat wings , honest........... Nah, you can get it at Brownells or Midway usa. Also pick up a copy of David L Westbrook's book Professional Stockmaking. It explains the process in detail and I'm sure you'll find a lot of other useful stuff in there too.

A public apology for hijacking Michael Petrov's most excellent thread. I bought his book Custom Gunmakers of the 20th Century and I'm really enjoying it.

Terry

Thanks Terry.

Hmmm... "carbonized charcoal"? sounds like there could be a home-brewed option.

I'm now curious about the use of rottenstone at this stage of the process. Isn't this a fine abrasive, and if used in the pore filling stage wouldn't it wreak havoc on checkering files? I guess I don't see the point when the paper used in wet sanding will supply the necessary abrasion and pore filling slurry. Just wondering.

Michael,

The pad on the Dubiel seems overly large, was the stock lengthened by using it after being shortened or was this something special. Considering the thickness of the black spacer and the pad, I would have to think it was shortened at one thime. What make pad is it? The color is perfect in my mind.

A10ACN,
Send pictures only, if you send a rifle one of three things will happen, it will get lost, it will get broken but if it makes it here in one piece I’ll keep it.



Thaine,
The Dubiel rifle had a small badly fitted recoil pad and they stock has a shot LOP or had been cut. The pad is a Silvers type fitted and aged by someone with a lot more skill than myself.



About one more set of pictures to follow and then this, like all things, has to end. I am amazed at the number of views in the two classic rifle threads. This was fun and I leaned a lot working with the pictures. I’m always interested in learning about any classic pre-1940 custom rifle and would welcome emails or calls from anyone seeking info.

I’m working on several articles and still need August Pachmayr rifle pictures and permission to publish them. Also Paul Jaeger, the Philadelphia marked rifles.

Sorry not a Mauser, this rifle was made for a captain of industry (his name is engraved on the floorplate) who must have spent all his time in the board room and little in the game field. The gunmaker was, well I’ll let you folks figure that out.

Michael,
I've been out of town and out of touch with AR for more than a week. It sure is nice to come back and find such a great thread going. I really appreciate the time and effort you've put into your research and especially for sharing it with all of us. The photos are wonderful - feel free to overload Saeed's server.
Forrest