The Hein/Satterlee has brought up a topic almost everyone associated with custom guns is familiar with-timely delivery of the finished product (or the portions of a product for which a craftsperson is responsible).

I was wondering if we could have a (civil) discussion on the topic and bounce some ideas around and see if we can come up with any ideas for fixing the problem. The thread below has been very civil and I hope we can keep it that way. I am not looking for a long list of “war stories,†but rather brief description of experience and suggestions from people on the other side of the bench, so to speak.

I would like to hear from people who have commissioned and already received at least 2 custom guns and see what they think about it. I say 2 commissioned AND delivered because that will focus on experiences of someone who is generally familiar with the trade. Not a thing in the world is wrong with only having one custom gun, it is just that a singular experience does not usually indicate a certain knowledge of, and experience with, commissioning custom guns and the potential pitfalls. I may be way off base on this, but it is definitely what experiences have shown to me.

I know this is a political hot potato, but if any gunmakers, suppliers to the trade, or anyone on the working side of the bench would chime in and offer suggestions, that would be great! I know it is a professional and personal risk to do so, and I sincerely hope that the client/potential clients and observers do not use any information gathered here to later bash any maker, but rather see them as someone who is trying to better the craft as a whole.

A simple civil, non-judgmental, idea session is at least a step forward. Obviously there is no silver bullet, or it would already have been used to fix the problem. I am just hoping we can make progress. I am sure open to suggestions.

I will take a huge risk and start. I have personally missed deadlines, one time in particular by a ridiculous margin. I learned a lot from that experience and changed the way I do some things. The first thing I changed was to increase communication anytime something major went wrong. I would at least like to think I do that today-or at least have made progress and do it better (that is probably more accurate).

One thing I try to work on is to not depend on vendors to meet their scheduled delivery dates. Waiting on the right part can pull everything to a screeching halt. I try to stress that things are contingent on other meeting their deadlines before I can even have a chance to meet mine. All makers know this, but I am not sure if everyone communicates that well. Maybe they do, I don’t know. I have assumed a client knows that and knows how sketchy vendor’s delivery times are, but that is not a safe assumption. Again, communication while still in the “tire kicking†phase will help.

There are other things I can write, but I would like to hear from others. I will chime in later as appropriate. I don’t want to be dominating the conversation, as that could possibly limit someone’s willingness to offer their opinion. In most of my previous lives I was managing large groups of people. I often found it helpful to get folks bouncing ideas off of each other to see how we could do things better. I see delivery as the biggest black eye in custom gunmaking and hope we can come up with things to help everyone out.

One last time-please be civil. I feel a little naked by posting this. I would hate to see it turn into a “bash the gunmakers in public†thread. And I would also hate just as much to see the gunmakers emailing each other and bashing the clients.

And just as a post script, I was talking to a gunmaker friend of mine yesterday and he was telling me a couple of tales of woe where he is currently held up on 2 projects, waiting on some one else. We were talking about it and got to thinking and it seems like metal work is usually a bottleneck for some reason. I have some ides about why that may be so, but would really appreciate your views on the subject.

I have only commissioned metalwork, not stocks or complete guns. In all cases the work was performed on time and on budget. In all cases I wrote out a simple contract that included a payment schedule. And in all cases, since different parts were required that the gunmaker wasn't going to make himslef, I used myself as a subcontractor and procured all of the needed parts BEFORE I sent the work to the gunmaker.

It seems to me that a huge part of backlogs is waiting for something from somebody else. If its a part, then I think one thing that could speed things up is to make sure and supply your metalsmith or stockmaker with all of the parts they will need before they begin your project. And if they are going to make the parts themselves, find out if they have the raw materials on hand, and get a schedule as to when each part will be done.

Marc, I will start off with my perceptions/ideas. I have had several custom guns built and several others modified to my standards, both rifles and pistols.

I think you hit a major nail on the head when you said "communications". I think this should preferrably happen up front, before the job is agreed to and in as exact terms as possible. Have I had rifles that were later than expected...sure, but I always knew about it and was not unhappy about it. I always try to communicate both in writing and by telephone. I am also very aware that every minute the gunmaker spends talking to me is a minute that they are not spending on someones project (possibly one of mine). The communication needs to be as clear as possible, and as concise as possible. To be clear, I have even sent pictures of barrel types and styles because the octagon styles can be different. It helped greatly. I finally boil it down to writing so that everyone is clear. I always ask how the gunmaker preferrs to comminucate. Some prefer telephone, some prefer email. My last rifle was done completely by email. I knew what I wanted, complete with pictures, and the gunsmith was more than happy to complete the project. Is email only for everyone...most definately not, but I could see examples of his work, check referrences, get his opinions on his timeframes. I could email during the day and he could respond at his convenience.

For the gunmaker, what I expect is an honest assessment of my project in terms of money, time and dollars. I also expect them, and maybe I am wierd this way, to pad the project as far as timeframes. I know stuff happens and wiggle room is a good thing, both from a customer perception issue as well as just being good business. I also expect communication. I am not the type to even call the gunmaker before the time they told me it would be ready. If it isn't supposed to be ready, well then I assume it isn't ready. If my prep work is good, then I have found an honest gunmaker, and hopefully a new sort of friend that will talk to me when they need to without being afraid that I will jump down their throats if they have bad news. Everyone goes on vacation and everyone gets sick, it is, as my BIL says, "nothing but a thing". Now the hard part for the gunmaker....If you are not going to make our agreed upon date, at all, or even by a couple months, let me know, offer to send me back any purchased parts along with the remainder of any money you have not used, and hopefully refer me to a competitent colleage that will complete the project. Then the ball is in my court. I can accept, with no hard feelings (maybe I'm wierd there too) or we can come to another date. Again, I feel like an investment of this size is sort of like building a friendship, they both have their ups and downs.

Overruns also happen. Let me know and we can talk about alternetives. If a particular part is hard to get, maybe I will accept another. Do I care if the buttplate is Dakota or Neider, I can probably accommodate, regardless of which I agreed upon up front.

I guess it boils down to, communication, honesty, flexibility and communication. If neither of us gets "eat up with the dumbass" then all is good. My $.02

Biggest problem I have had is waiting on "others". Suppliers etc. That has been one are where I have made serious efforts to be more self sufficient and do things in house.

Another major issue is the amount of time I spend on the phone with tire kickers and guys who have absolutely no intention of commissioning work. To be blunt Im pretty fed up. Unless you already know me dont expect a warm fuzzy when you called to "ask about a custom stock". I spend so much time on the phone with these types of calls that the guys who have actually PAID for work arent getting their just attention.

And to those who would say - "phone time is a part of any business", remember, I dont have a sales department.

I have never had a custom gun be less than 6 months late, and a year or so seems the norm. Right now I have 2 projects that are going into their 5th year and two that are well into their 2nd year. Either I can get used to it or have a heart attack over it. I think I will just get used to it.

The Wife is supposed to be the sales dept.

So I've been told.

The trick or luck is getting a "good-one" or rich one, or one with a high paying job so the man can stay home and play with guns

quote:

The Wife is supposed to be the sales dept.

So I've been told.

The trick or luck is getting a "good-one"

when I have trouble with someone/institution/legal entity/insuror, etc, I tell them we can clean up the matter right now, or I'll put my wife on the phone.

of the few times I've had work done (all minor, really), the only time I leaned on a guy I didn't get good work, or what I wanted, but he shipped it on time.

recently I emailed a gunsmith on a full-blown project, and he never responded.

in the past I sent out, on seperate occasions, two barreled actions to be de-barreled, and was charged for and returned both with spall marks on the barrels, still attached.

if you get asked lots of questions, experiences as the above could be the impetus for them.

Mark,

I haven't commissioned any complete custom rifles, only 5 metal work jobs/barrel jobs, and I don't currently have anything in progress.

I do have over 10 years epxerience in the engineering service field and can provide some excellent advice based on what has and hasn't worked in that field to keep customers happy, and I know it applies directly to the custom gun field.

The absolute keys are, a clear scope of work, a clearly defined schedule for the completion of the work, and most importantly, prompt communication with the customer when delays arrise.

With computers these days there is no excuse for a smith not to have a good spreadsheet developed that identifies exactly what the client wants in his gun. You send him a blank one, he fill's it out as appropriate for the job, you review it and make suggestions if required, and once both parties are happy, a deposit is made, and an estimated delivery is provided to the customer. If he insists your estimated delivery is too long and he pushes you to speed it up, don't take the job. This is warning number one you're setting yourself up to make the customer unhappy.

Now let's say during the process the guy calls you up and says he wants to change the chambering, or the barrel length, or whatever. You revise the order form to reflect those changes, and if he wasn't different componets that'll take longer to arrive, you let him know it'll delay completion.

XYZ barrel maker calls and says it'll take em 2 extra months to provide the barrel you need for a project. As soon as you know your project is delayed, you spend 2 minutes firing off an e-mail to the customer to inform him that unfortunately his project will be delayed.

Or, a family member is ill and you have to spend a few weeks away from the shop. Send out e-mails to all current customers to let them know your projects are going to slip, you don't know how long but will keep them informed.

There is simply no excuse for gunsmiths to give the old I'll ship it out on Friday and drag that out for 2 months, when they knew a month before the job was do they weren't going to make the date. A little bit of timely correspondance makes a huge difference in happy customers, the silence treatment when a customer expects something and nothing shoes up is a huge pizzer.

1. Customers often have to interrogate a gunsmith to determine how good he is and what methods he uses to say - chamber a barrel. Otherwise write down how the work is performed on a web page or a printed page.
2. Write down the requirements and make sure they are very specific for both sides.
3. If the items acquired from a vendor are a possible problem make the buyer order them and deliver a complete kit from to you. You inventory the kit when you get it. No deal until it is all there.
4. Deliver when you say you will deliver. If you don't.... expect to get beat up. If you are getting defect free dollars on time you should live up to your end of the deal.
5. If the customer jerks you around fire him just as he will fire you if the job is wrong.
6. It is a business transaction.
7. Don't assume a customer wants to put up with both your delays and your personality.

All products are measured by three things.....delivery, quality and price and they are interchangable/negotiable for sure!

In the end however all business is conducted on trust and reputation.....contracts become void as one cannot get blood from a turnip!

A smith that badly smudges his reputation will soon loose the confidence of his customers and go out of business!

As far as I'm concerned.....I wouldn't shell out a bundle to a smith that wasn't of high reputation!

It's the key reason certain smiths command so much for their services.....they have earned a high reputation.....and I'd bet they want to keep it by being upright with the customers!

A lot of folks want services for little or nothing and gamble on "No Name" smiths.....and in these cases some will win and some will lose!

For these I have little sympathy!

I have many custom guns complete and in my hands. I have 7 others going on now. Like 500 grains, my typical experience is 6 months late, and often a year or more late.

This is with one notable exception, and that is a smith who has built me several customs, which did not require a stock to be built per se. These jobs were along the lines of rebarrel/chamber, pillar & glass bed, and restock with a McMillan or such synthetic, plus tweak magazines to ensure proper feeding. These to me are full blown customs, as what the smith started with was a barreled action, and the action was the only thing that remained 'original'. This smith gets the bulk of my work now--I'm working on a combo with him and a stockmaker to make my next rig.

The biggest issue I have had is having to manage the process as opposed to the smith managing it. Most I've dealt with do not have good work order/ follow up procedures. On top of that, my experience is that promised dates come and go like so much wind. As Paul mentioned, communication and good records should be the norm, but it is hit or miss IME.

I have several friends who are at their wits end due to project delays, and have really made a decision not to do any more customs. They ask me why I stay so calm, and it's pretty simple to me....getting upset and pushing usually doesn't help much. Letting someone know you are disappointed and want some solid information actually seems reasonable, but tends to put folks on the defensive regardless of how easily you ask the questions. I've had a few guys step up and say they just weren't going fast enough, and give me revised dates--that was certainly appreciated, but in each of these cases, the revised dates were missed--horribly.

I think that quoting realistic dates must either be trickier than it seems, or smiths are scared to tell someone how long it will really take. The most professional guys I have dealt with in terms of up front 'paperwork' and specifics, have in fact been the most close to their schedules. There is clearly some merit in that (detailed work order etc.) in judging someone to do your project.

My final thought would be pretty much what Paul said, detailed work orders and follow up, as well as communication, communication, communication. That is the one thing I find entirely common, not keeping the customer posted as things go along--or wrong. I think the Internet and the ease with which pictures can be sent should be a basic goal for any smith, and as easy and quick as this form of communication can be, should be taken advantage of. I won't do another project with a smith who isn't e-capable.

One thing that doesn't change is the excitement when the box arrives--just got one in today--woo-hoo!!! Over 8 months late, but damn is she pretty--custom walnut to my specs--damn I wish I had the talent to do it--since I don't, I'll keep hiring some folks that do!

I have ordered a half dozen rifles built to suit.

I have asked for estimated delivery schedules, but I have never insisted on a deadline, except once. The deadline was important to me because I had my heart set on taking that rifle to Africa on safari. That rifle barely made it to me on time, and then had to go back, because of a feeding problem.

I sent it back next day air, for the "fix-it" work, then made sure the 'smith sent it back to me, again next day air, for further testing.

Luckily the problem was fixed and I took the rifle to Africa as planned.

So for me, quality control has been as big an issue as timeliness. If a deadline is important to you, as a customer, then say so at the outset (as I did in the case cited above) and don't let the 'smith off the hook. In my case, the 'smith paid all shipping charges and naturally the fix was at no cost to me as well.

My only extra payment was in units of high blood pressure.

Marc, I never said this, and I will deny it if you ever quote it back to me, but to me quality is far more important than any delivery deadline, and a deadline is only important if I really need the rifle for a particular purpose by that time.

On the other hand, I have never had to wait more than about a year and a half for even a more or less scratch built rifle.

Communication seems to be the key. I agree with Paul that its not unreasonable for a smith to contact the customer if he can't make a previously agreed upon deadline. If the smith can't make it on time for some reason, drop the customer a line and him know. What's wrong with that?

I have had 5 rifles built. The three that had sooner than expected delvery times. I got the parts. I spent some time talking with the smith on my expectations and what parts would work the best. I ordered the parts. I made the calls to the distributors. PIA but worth it in the end. Rilfes are exactly what I wnated and tack drivers on top of that.
The 2 other were nightmares, built by another smith. Feeding problems, bad dies (Built by the smith) just suck work. Delivery times were with in a few weeks, but late. I have no rifles with engraving or fancy wood. I know that extends leade times. I think the more the customer can do helps alot. Have an idea what he wants and explains that to the smith. I understand If you are talking to me you are not at the lathe or mill. Same time, the guys who will make you a super Benchrest gun might not be the guy you want to build a DR rifle. Communication goes a long way and that sometimes takes time. I worked in a gunshop for a while. A phone call saying, "hey your gun will not be done becuase of XXXX when we talked before. I have not forgot about you" goes a long way. I spoke with a smith about cleaning up one of the hackjobs I have. He was very friendly. He flat told me his back log was atleast a year. Then gave me some ideas on what I could do to fix some feeding issues. He then said most of his evening time he uses busting out small project and maybe he could fit me in. Well he is not getting this job, but the conversation I had with him. The man will probably get my next build, becuase he gave me no bullshit answers. After talking with him and my regular smith, a rechamber might be in order, so back to the main guy I use. I know the main smith I use spends mondays ordering parts and getting phone calls. So that is when I call. Maybe an answering machine message saying, I am working leave your name and phone number and a time, I will call back and set up an oppiontment to discuss your project. or Hey, I am in the middle of something. I can talk to you after 5, just make it before 6 becuase my girls have a game and so on. That might weed out the tire kickers and help with customer service. This side of the bench there is alot of hesitation just sending a rifle to just anybody. Reputation only goes so far. Today dumping a grand or two on a custom rifle is not much money, but it is enough to easily get put off. So I guess the answer is, communication.

I agree, along with most everyone else, that communication is the key. I do realize that suppliers can slow up a project and that is not the gunmaker's problem. But, in one case I sent the gunmaker every item needed. He had to cut the stock, finish inlet, finish and checker the stock. In that case, delviered about 10 months late, I blame the time management skills of the gunmaker. I also know for a fact that another customer had the same work commissioned, brought his work in 4 months after I did mine, and picked his up 6 months earlier. That, to me, was very poor business. If someone asks me how this gunmaker's work was, I will tell them the story and let them be the judge.
As I said in an earlier post on a different topic, I am patient. If you tell me it will take 2 years to do the work, then I will not even bother you, unless you call me to ask a question, during that 2 year period. At the end of the 2 year period, I expect my product. The gunmaker set the cost and delivery time...basically made the rules...so now he should follow his own rules.
If there is a family problem, medical issue, etc. that is understandable...but again, communicate.
Mark, thanks for a very good topic and hope my answer was civil...I really meant it to be.

Communication is one of the biggest issues as has been said. A couple of other things, many good gunsmiths are really terrible businessmen when it comes to the basics like planning, communicating and tracking orders and bookkeeping. If they are too busy with gunsmithing work, they need to get some help. Meaningful time estimates are also important. If it is going to take a couple of years, tell me and I can decide if I want to wait that long or I can try to find someone else to do it. If you tell me 6 months and it takes 2 years with monthly promises of "next week" I won't be back. I have ordered a couple of things on which neither I nor the gunsmith could even guess at a timeline other than it was going to take a while. These took 3-5 years to finish and it was OK. I think that a gunsmith with a reputation for good work and delivering on time could charge a stiff premium and get all the work they wanted.

I questioned a custom gunmaker once on why he charged what I thought was a high figure for basically a rebarrel job.

He said, "Are you a master machinist?"

I said "No, I'm not."

He said "Then I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain it to you."

That's HOW NOT TO do it.

first - you have to know what you want
second - find the man who does that kind of work
(i.e. if you want a plastic gun don't go to a bill soverns, find somebody who usually does that type of work)
third - you know its going to cost - accept that fact
fourth - give the man time, i don't believe I've ever gotten a custom job in less than a year, usually closer to 2.
fifth - talk to the man so he knows what you're looking for, but realize at the same time that he knows more than you do

This is a sticky subject.
I've had 10 custom rifles built over the years
I think 22WRF has a good approach, establishing, in writing, what dates and prices must be met, a contract. That way, everything is above board, and both the maker and the buyer know the what is expected. I see that as the very best route to go; it's professional. It forces the maker to actually find out what his lead times are for supplied parts from his venders in advance, and what the long pole in the tent is, in terms of time. This removes all guessing on the part of the maker. I can cite years of personal experience in doing this in a production environment where I worked. If the maker can not meet the customer's price or time, then the two sit down and negotiate. If they can not come to an agreement, the customer goes elsewhere. This is done up front, before the contract is signed, and the gun build starts. It's the only professional solution. Now, assuming the two agree, the gunsmith begins the build. Some where along the way, a supplier has a delay, and the smith learns the build may be delayed. The first thing the smith must do is let the customer know. Tact on the part of the smith is called for. It's part of the territory, letting customers know his new rifle will be delayed. One thing I did when I managed a repair shop, was in my contract with the customer, I added some "shit happens" time, not much, maybe a few days, but it saved a lot of grief for me when 'shit" did happen, like the repairman's wife had a baby and he attended to his wife, and didn't come to work that day, so he couldn't get his job done on time.
Expectations. Expectations are something a smith must consider; the expectations on the part of the customer. When an expectation is unfulfilled, an upset will happen, 100% of the time, guaranteed. When you promise a rifle by a certain date, the customer will get upset if it is not done. The ONLY way out of that is communication; honest, sincere communication about what is going on.
Now, I've never done what I suggest above, and what 22WRF does. I realize the "shit happens", so I never establish a price or schedule of when I want a rifle. What I have done, is I only go to honest, hard working smiths, who incidentally do great work. I know "generally" how long it will take to get the rifle. I plan on a year to a year and a half, and that works for me. And, I have never been upset because I have a date that I expected a rifle to be delivered, which was missed by the maker. I like giving the smiths some space for the 'shit' to happen and never bug him on progress. I've always had my rifles within one and a half years. A bunch of them I've had in less than a year with custom Walnut stocks included. I go to smiths who make those kinds of deliveries, with top drawer work too.
My approach is a personal one and based on know smiths delivering a good rifle in a resonable time frame. If I was in a hurry, I would be doing as 22WRF does.

Don

One does have to be realistic. I have just 'commissioned' a smith to inlet a stainless M700 into a flat top Mcmillan, pillar bed, fit a Jewell, recrown and bead blast throughout. This is being a bit cheeky as in effect I'm asking him to turn out an el cheapo clone of his tip grade synthetic customs.

He's going to do it for me but in his words when I asked for it in August 'there are no guarentees whatever' Given it's not his core business and that he's been upfront I must hold that in mind if August comes around and he hasn't started.

I reckon a lot of people forget things like this - there is a disproportionate number of idiots amongst the shooting public

Again, I have to ask a simple question. Why is it that we don't mind if some craftsmen deliver items 2-5 years late, and yet for others we would be royally p**sed off?
A gunmaker may take an additional year, 2 years maybe more to finish a project, past the original agreed upon time.
Now, if you take your truck to a engine rebuilder, he tears the engine apart and starts the rebuild, and then doesn't finish the job until a year or more after it was promised, are you honestly going to tell me that you would pat him on the back and say, "That's okay, I know things can happen, don't worry about it."
I doubt that anyone would say that.
The above two examples are both illustrating craftsmen. Why is it we would defend the delay for one and not for the other?
I have worked with many good smiths who deliver on time, or faster, and unfortunatly have worked with others who deliver many months, or more, late. Not trying to stir the pot, or flame or get flamed, but just curious as to why one "trade" is more special than another.

TC 1 - I agree with you that a contract won't help unless you are willing and able to enforce it, and even then it will only help if the defaulting 'smith has anything to lose. It's also true that a contract won't protect you against a crook or a fraud.

Bottom line of course is that one should do his best to know who he's dealing with - by way of references, personal knowledge, reputation, etc. Best bet is to do business with people you are comfortable with, ideally people you can trust and who have a proven track record. There is no substitute for that.

On the other hand, a contract or a writing of some sort will at least make it clear from the outset what the expectations and understandings of the parties are with respect to the job. In other words, it can help avoid misunderstandings.

Along with good communications - clarity and mutual understanding of the terms and conditions of the job are the keys.

Terry, I see your point, except that gunmaking is one of the few businesses where one can commission work and have it be years late and the person doing the work is not called a fraud or a crook. If it was years late on homebuilding, car building, or any other industry, EVERYONE would cry fraud. Can you imagine how long an auto maker would last if you ordered a car today and got it in 2010? They all have suppliers, and inventory. Heck, they even have labor disputes that most gunmakers don't.

We see people here all of the time carrying on about such-and-such a seller in the classifieds is a fraud when a shipment is a couple of weeks late, or more. Why should gunmakers get let off the hook. Is my money any different with them? I have commissioned paintings for thousands of dollars as well, and I do not let them off without a firm due date either.

Why has the gun industry allowed someone to go over a due date for months and years is beyond me. In any other field they would be broke, shown to be disreputable and a crook, just not the gunmaking industry.

Now having said all of that that may make me seem harsh, re-read my original post and see that I have found ways around it, with mutual respect and friendship. I have never been burned, nor waited more than a couple extra months, because real gunmakers are just as you say, neither crooks nor frauds.

Maybe that is a job, or enterprise for an inventive person....find a way, either by simple spreadsheets, databases, inventory control programs, or whatever, to help the gunmakers have that part of their businesses be smoother and faster. Unless they are just wierd, they do it because they love it and not because they want to do inventory or talk on the phone all day or even in some cases they don't enjoy computers all that much. I know from what some have said, they prefer a polite quick phone call, or email, not even a PM. I know there are some that post here that are that way.

I am by no means advocating shoving a check and contract in their faces, but a polite, concise agreement is not unreasonable, at all, between honest, reputable hard-working folks. If you turn your statement around, I would never give someone several thousand dollars and just say, "let me know when you have time for my project in the next five years or so, or whenever you get to it". Seems foolish on that end too.

I think Marc's focus is as much "how can we bring things mutually closer" as anything else. I applaud Marc for the foresight to bring the question and allow us to have a respectful discussion about it. I would do business with him.

And Jack ended up Phuqueing a lot of people in the end.

SDH

Great Post!!!!

When is your new book coming out?

Hello Folks

I've not much experience in the custom gun world, but I deal quite a bit with artists, and there is no doubt that a custom rifle by any of the top guys is a true "work of art, and this is indeed what separates a true custom rifle from an otherwise very nice rifle.

Artists vary tremedously, but the very nature of being an artist is that it is a mind game, and while a top machinist can probably do good work while he mad at whatever, few real artists can produce "on demand", they need to be a a special place in their minds to do their best work.

To "contract" an artwork and expect a commercial framework cover it (ie fixed timeframes, penalties etc) is faught with difficulties (and believe me it is . . . from bitter professional experiences) - this is a relationship thing.

However it doesn't excuse the artist from broken promises and suchlike, it just means one must adopt a different approach. In olden times the Principal often had the power of life or death over their artists, and even then they didn't always get what they wanted !!

Cheers

I wonder how many times a gunsmith has had multiple projects going and after a couple of years forgot who wanted what....
...and there was nothing written down to prove what had been agreed to.... when it is written down people tend to think about what they are comitting to a lot more clearly on both sides.
That is what a contract does.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
congomike, One craftsman is fixing something that broke and the other is building something his customer has come up with in his head. The two aren't even comparable.

In fact IMO, they are comparable.
Many Enthusiasts exhist outside the gun world.

custom engines,trans,frames& suspension
custom frames and aged tyres for tourdfrance,
custom pro camera lenses,
Custom homes
Custom fishing rods,etc etc etc
Many of these are done on contract or sound agreements of integrity of delivery, with reasonably expected delivery dates which are essential for certain competitons, race meets,field expeditions and testing programs.

They are very uniquely talented folk in their own right also, no less than a fine smith.
If they dont deliver without a good and fair reason, their customers are justfifiably unhappy also.
A contract dont seem that silly to them.

I would not go hard on someone who :
- injured himself- wife having a baby- had a freak hailstorm, - blew a gear in his lathe or found he needs to fit a new bearing on his mill, -wants to order a custom grind Ti-nitride Carbide bullnose endmill cutter to machine my action,as it will give a better finish/less vibration.-Etc,etc,etc.

Golfer Greg Norman Ordered "Aussie Rules" a 228ft Custom yatch for $70m, it went over the quoted project price,but the Company did not go chasing him for the money.
To some folk, a custom mauser is their equal of a luxury yatch, and I dont see why they should have to go chasing the smith to finish it as agreed.

-Both the smith and customer need to choose each other and their suppliers carefully.
-Do as much home work as possible to avoid as many problems as possible.
NO you dont have to have a contract in the true strict business sense of the word, but it does not hurt to have a written program from your smith on how he foresees the process.
Ethically, they should contact you if they can foresee or encounter major hold up or problem, if its majorly going to effect the time estimate or cost for the build.

TC1...I did use an example that was not very comparable, so let me try again. Anyone who has been a fan of drag racing will recognize the name of Keith Black. Keith Black Hemis are legends in themselves, he is probably THE person to go to if you wanted a winning hemi.
Now, do you think he would have been able to keep that reputation if he had delayed racer's projects for a year or more than promised? I don't think he would be the legend he is today.

Tc1,

NO, Im not all over the place.
It dont matter if its a 15k rifle or 15k cycle for tourDfrance,They are simply examples of proffessionals with passions&specialised abilities/skills be it individual or companies.
The products they provide are no less important to people than a custom gun would be to others.
Why is is they can have it together and are not affraid of a strong agreement or contract and have the capability to properly deliver?
I dont exempt gunmakers from that kind of responsibilty.
You generally dont make friends with Purdey, H&H,H&Weiss. You either buy or dont buy. IF you do,they deliver.

My smith I have a good rapour with, and delivers,as much as he does to people he has much less rapour with,both guns turn out equally fine. Their time and money is worth just as much as mine.
He is in business, friendships a welcome bonus. A person cannot rely soley on friends to keep business doors open, nor can you expect all your clients to be friends.
Some are simply straight shooters who know what they want, order in good faith, pay the bill, and are happy when the smith that takes the job on, proves to be a straight shooting organised focused and dedicated operator.
That contributes to a successful business for a smith who has a passion to build guns for a living, most likely resulting in return business & recommemdations,and sometimes friendships.
Esteemed engine builders like K.Black also have friends in the industry, but they still need to do good on their order,he knows racers need those engines at certain times, just like hunters would like their new rifles ready for 1,2,3? seasons away.

"But can he build custom rifles?"

No ones asking Black to build a rifle, nor is anyone asking your smith to build an engine.
One person builds rifles, another engines,another computer systems, or whatever,each has their own skill in the respective industry.
How they perform and conduct themselves & the product they put out is the real issue.

My favourite furniture is 4k/3 months for a chair and 50k/2-3yrs for table&chairs.
His reputation for delivery is just as important as his quality product,infact its that combo that really cements him as supreme in the industry. He dont subscribe to the idiology that the longer and longer it takes, the better it must be and the more you will be in demand. He accepts orders and is sensible enough to know what and when he can deliver, based on knowledge of his ability and the quality/quantity required.
It seems some gunmakers like to be regarded as proffesionals, but like to be arty farty vague,distant and very non commital at the same time. It dont wash with me.
Fortunately, there are fine smiths out there, who like the furinture maker,are self aware,grounded and talented.
When you find them,stick with them, and stay away from the dreamers, for they often misread their ambitions as abilities, and it dont benefit anyone.

I have a .333 jeffery comming up...but my gunmaker has stated though that my customproject
will takes its time because his normally customers with their repaires are served first.
He makes more money on simple repaires than making up a full customrifle...so natually he won`t charged me "fullprice" as long as I had patience.....so I just have to wait...which is ok for me. if the rifle is done before x-mas it has taken 18 months + two years of waiting for the special rifled barrels.
But all in all its always nice to look foreward joyfully to a great dreamrifle

hello,
I think everything that SDH said is accurate and truthful. It should be stapled to the FFL application.
John

I don't have the inventory or spend near as much money on custom rifles as some here but my experience latley has been fine. I drop of the action and blank, discuss what I want, discuss a ballpark price and then I forget about it untill he has a question or it's done. Trust is the major factor for me. I know the people who do the work and they are close by. My poor experiences with gunsmiths have been mostly those I have shipped stuff to that live several states away.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
The whole contract idea is just stupid. Jerry

What happens if you want a 24 inch barrel and get a 22 inch barrel? Oh wait that is just the way it is after all contracts/written specs are stupid

thanks for the posts and the nice tone. Looks like it may be deteriorating a little, so I will ask again to please be very polite and professional.

THis is a very emotional topic for those on both sides of the bench, so it is totally understandable to have trouble not coming across a little "testy."

I am writing some more input from my vantage point and will post it this evening.

Marc SDH nailed it..........Print his post out and hang it on your bulletin board............

He sure did hit the nail on the head from my vantage point! Unfortunately, I could relate to it.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
For those who don't understand, there is a big difference in a work order and a contract!

Terry

Regardless of the technical/legal differences I think many people here use the terms interchangeably. I am also not sure that a signed work order doesn't become a type of contract anyway. I would sure rather have something on paper on my side rather then "memory"

Regardless its not stupid to have it in writing whatever you call it.

Ok guys, we have established the fact that some people see value in writing everything down and having the maker sign it, and others see no value in doing that. There are 2 sides to it, and both have adequitly been represented here. Let's please move on. Now.

Is there any other purchaser of at least 2 custom guns who would like to share their experience and any suggestions? Are there any more makers who would like to offer words of wisdom from their vantage point?

SDH, thanks for taking the time to give us your insight. We woudn't have need for this discussion if all gunsmiths practiced their trade as you do. You and Don Klein should run workshops for the ACGG members on how to organize and run their businesses like a business.

Here's my advice to gunsmiths:

1. Don't lie to your customers. If you feel like you have to lie, then at least write down the lie to keep your story straight.

2. Don't lie to yourself. Have a realistic idea of your capabilities and schedule.

3. If you can't balance a checkbook, find someone who can or get out the business.

4. If your wife doesn't understand and support your desire to be a gunsmith, get out of the business. The gun trade has destroyed more marriages than alcohol.

5. Charge enough to make an honest living. The base costs of just being in business (any business) is high. Low-ball bids and unprofitable pricing don't help you, your customers or the trade in general.

6. Don't try to mix high-end business and low-end business. It's hard to turn down a dollar but if taking on that little repair job jeopardizes completing a full-custom job on schedule, then taking on that little job might be a career damaging mistake.

7. Don't think your customers don't talk and compare notes with one another.

8. Talent at your craft is not enough to ensure success. The streets are littered with talented gunmakers who couldn't handle the business side of their shop.

9. Your reputation is your most valuable asset and one that is neither easily nor cheaply repaired.