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I have a McGowen 44 mag rifle barrel on order to re-barrel my Savage. It is very easy to headspace a Savage barrel, but the question is, should I head space on the mouth or the rim? Which will result in the best accuracy? Head spacing on the mouth requires very uniform case length and possible trimming (I think), which I would rather not do. Ranb ______________________________ In my opinion the best accessory to put on a rifle is a silencer. | ||
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Then don't. Headspace on the rim as usual and let the brass flow forward. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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I have never really paid much attention to how straight mouthed pistol brass changes length. In fact I was once told that pistol brass does not grow like bottle necked rifle brass, but I really do not know. Ranb ______________________________ In my opinion the best accessory to put on a rifle is a silencer. | |||
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I'm curious about your 44 mag - Savage project. I'm just not familiar with Savage rifles. What action are you using? Are you planning on using it like a single shot, hand feeding each cartridge, or is there a Savage action that will feed 44 mag properly? Thanks, KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Factory .44 Magnum cartridges are crimped meaning the case mouth cannot be used for headspacing. Suppose you want to fire factory ammo. You will have nothing to headspace on. Try this. Get a military Mauser with a big square shoulder at the end of the chamber. Make some cases out of .30-06 brass that headspace on the case mouth. It is ok if you also make them headspace on the shoulder. Heck you can even seat the bullet out against the rifling. Now fire those rounds. Notice how much shorter the case is after firing. Now resize them and see if they will still headspace precisely on the case mouth. | |||
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Yeah, fired brass can shorten, and then sizing lengthens the brass again -- but not uniformly. I shoot a lot of 44 mag. handgun and carbine. Headspace on the rim like Elmer Keith intended. | |||
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I forgot about roll crimps not being good for head spacing. Opps. I guess I am using the rim. I will only be using 310-360 grain subsonic handloads in this gun as it will have a silencer. The 1-10 twist should keep the long bullet from striking the baffles. I am using a Savage 10 short action. I intend to modify the magazine so that it will hold three rounds and feed properly, but otherwise it will be a single shot. I also have to open up the bolt head about 40 thousands and modify the extractor a bit, but this should be no problem. Ranb ______________________________ In my opinion the best accessory to put on a rifle is a silencer. | |||
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I suppose by short action, you mean the magazine is blocked off? Seems that Savage has a 223 bolt action, magazine blocked off or whatever. As I understand it, the 458 Socom has the same head as the 223. Since the Savage is a push feed, I'm wondering if the 458 Socom would feed from the 223 magazine, as it does in the AR platform? That could be an interesting set-up. Subsonic factory loads, etc., possibly minimal feeding issues, especially not having to deal with a rim. The 458 Socom uses standard 1 in 14" twist and shoots a varity of bullet weights including 400 gr .458 bullets, subsonic or full blast. And the 458 Socom head spaces on the shoulder, and has no rim. It's a drastically rebated case head. Perhaps equally important - it is a rifle cartridge by design, rather than pistol cartridge. If it feeds well, even if only two down and one in the chamber, it would really be something more than a toy, and really useful, with or without a suppressor. Also, perhaps important to some folks, actually have resale value. Real rifle - same money. A skillful gunsmith may be able to get the thing to feed off AR magazines. I dunno. That's for someone else to figure out. I just dream this carp up, but it seems like a reasonable possibility to me. It just gets more interesting. Somebody could make some money off this idea. If so, I want royalties, or at least dibbs on the prototype. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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The Savage short action is 308 length, the 223 version has the small mag block in back and an extension on the front flange. I will keep the mag block and extended flange in place, but may need to use the larger 308 mag and make another block to fit it. I already have a 458 socom uppper for my ar-15. I was flirting with the idea of a bolt gun in 458 socom, but I am not able to find anyone who will make a Savage barrel for me and I am not able to rent a 458 socom reamer set. Pac-Nor said they would do the barrel if I found a reamer. Ranb ______________________________ In my opinion the best accessory to put on a rifle is a silencer. | |||
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Super. So, I know that PacNor will make a savage barrel, threaded, contoured, crowned, everything but chambered. I have worked this problem with them before, barrel maker and reamer in different locations. Take the barrel to the reamer. Surely there is a gunsmith with a 458 Socom reamer who will do the chambering for you, thus avoiding the need to get the reamer to PacNor. Seems that you know something about magazines and feeding. Since you have 458 Socom ammo, and maybe access to a 223 Savage, it should be relatively easy to see if it will feed with little modification. To me that is a very basic prerequisite to proceeding with any project. It's that simple - black and white - will it feed PROPERLY? yes or no. Yes = proceed , No = stop. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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The thought occurred to me that the Savage may feed the 450 Marlin cartridge. Standard magnum bolt face, short magazine box. PacNor has the reamer for this one. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Headspace on the rim. Then you can shoot crimped revolver ammo. If you headspaced on the case mouth, you lose the option of shooting ammo that's crimped.... "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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I assume this rifle has the standard recessed bolt face. The recess will be deeper than the rim. To headspace on the rim means you will have to put a dinky headspacing ring on the barrel to contact the rim but clear the bolt . The other option is to cut the recess down until the rim is exposed to headspacing directly on the flat face of the barrel. Either way the extractor gets in the way. Neither option is very good. A much cheaper single shot that will work is a either a lever gun made for .44 or .30-30 and the 340 Savage that was made for .30-30. Of course the Remington 788 was made in .44 magnum. The 788 will be expensive and then it has the crummy 38" twist that is too slow to stabilize very slow projectiles so it will have to be rebarreled. | |||
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SR 4759, I like your handle. Good info on the headspace issue. Now there two major problems with the 44/Savage project - headspace and feeding. Seems like McGowen would give good advice on this before selling the barrel, if they really had the customer's best interest in mind. Oh well, could be worse - could be my money. Been there - done that - but not quite so obviously up front. I studied the 340 Savage once, and noticed it has only one locking lug. Humm. The 788 in 44 mag is expensive these days, and extra magazines are hard to find, and the bolt is rear lockup, poor trigger, poor extractor, etc. Not worth rebarreling IMO. ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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1. Lots of Krag Jorgensons around which also have only one lug, but they are quite long-lasting (well over 110 years now for lots of them), and their working pressures are about the same or higher than the .44 Mag, so that presumed lack of strength wouldn't scare me off. 2. Rear lock-up can be a hassle with cartridges having a bottlenecked shape and which headspace on the shoulder. However, for short straight cases which headspace on the rim, rear-locking really creates little or no problems regards growing/shrinking headspace. So, that wouldn't bother me either, personally. 3. There are gunsmiths around who not only do good work on M-788 triggers, but who actually do good, inexpensive, work with them for people who compete in cast-bullet benchrest and sometimes win with them. Larry Bloomer of Eugene, Oregon, is one. 4. Cost of the 788 is a relative matter... relative to the buyer's desires and means. So I won't comment on that one, as every man's desires and means may vary. 5. As to the M-788 magazines... True, they are not easy to find in .44 Mag, but then how many does a guy really need? And for most people a factory designed & manufactured rimmed cartridge magazine is going to work better than any Rube Goldberg one. 6. One item not mentioned in the quote above is why the M-788 disappeared from the market. Many believe (rightly or wrongly) it was discontinued because it was so accurate that it was killing sales of the higher-profit M-700 Remington. Even if that really isn't why the 788 was dropped (and none of us here really knows one way or the other), it says a lot for what many people think about their accuracy potential. Myself, if I wanted a .44 Mag chambered rifle (which I don't), I think I'd spend my money by starting with a M-788, and then tweaking it to meet my own particular biases/preferences. In the long run that "MIGHT" be both the least expensive approach and also have the highest resale value if it ever came to that. | |||
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Sure one lug is better than none. Sorta like having one nut - sure it will get you up and shooting - bullets rather than blanks, but two lugs & nuts are better. I had a 788 in 44 mag once, and it was accurate. I liked it very much. I had a Ruger 77/44 once and it was very inaccurate. My point is I wouldn't mess with the 44 mag, unless I wanted to use an Encore or something like that. I would satisfy my curiosity about the feeding of the 450 Marlin in the modern savage action. If it feeds as well as I think it will, that's a real good solution to this puzzel. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I have been unable to find any rifle with an appropriate bolt face for a decent price. I even considered using an Enfield rifle. I'm going with the dinky headspacing ring on the barrel that contacts the rim and clears the bolt face after I open up the bolt face. I will also file down the extractor to properly hold the larger 44 case rim. I can notch the headspacing ring to allow the extractor to engage the rim when the bolt is opened. If it does not work, then it is a failed $360 experiment. Ranb ______________________________ In my opinion the best accessory to put on a rifle is a silencer. | |||
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Thanks SR4759. I took another look at the bolt head based on what you said. I have to re-think the project if I want to keep the extrator in place. McGowen had not started the barrel yet and was nice enough to cancel the order for me. Thanks again. Ranb ______________________________ In my opinion the best accessory to put on a rifle is a silencer. | |||
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