I have been interviewing gun people on the .404 Jeffery/10.75X73 cartridges -- .404 Jeff for short. I say cartridges, because there appear to be more than one of them. The recent threads here and on the Big Bore forum got me interested, and a fascinating email from Tom Burgess in response to a post I made really got me interested in writing something for African Hunter. I have been searching the Internet for reference material, and also interviewing knowledgable people via email (and on the telephone for those without).

There are several references to European standard and American standard for the .404 Jeff.

Who has a copy of the CIP specification?

thanks...jim dodd

You might check Ken Howell's book (I don't have a copy). Nice article on the 375.

Howell lists two, one from Birmingham Proof House, one CIP maximums.
The one is a case (An example of the nominals), the other is the outside tolerance. No difference. Incidentally, he also lists a ".404 Kynoch" with the exact same diminsions as the Jeffery.
Maybe this is where the confusion comes from?
I haven't seen the threads you mention.
Also, maybe SAAMI has different talerances for chambers?

JGS, the reamer maker. Offer copy's of the British designed cartidge chamber specs. They are based on the CIP and British Proof House information.

They have three names for this cartidge.
10.75 x 73
404 Jeffrey
404 Rimless Nitro Express

You can get a copy from JGS or Huntington

Oh, yeah. The metric name. Wasn't that "invented" by someone else, "Schueller" or something, at the same time? Maybe someone was reading someone else's homework!

So far the most definitive data I have is from Wolfe Publishing's Big Bore Rifles & Cartridges, page 235 and 239 in Al Miller articles on the .404 Jeffery and .416 Rigby respectively. The .404 Jeff article apparently first appeared in Handloader 55.

The cartridge drawing for the .404 Jeff shows a .421"/10.693 mm bullet diameter, and the source is identified at Barnes' Cartridges of the World. The text says: "Bullet diameter is .421-inch in some Kynoch loadings, sometimes as much as .423-inch in European loads."

I have seen other references to British rifles with bores as small as .418".

The hunt continues.

jim

I have heard something about one kind of 404 brass that comes with standard large rifle primer pockets and another kind that comes with some sort of British type primer pocket.

H. C.

My William Powell takes a .419.
I believe this was part of the problem when Ruger tried the .404, ............they cut the reamers based on A Square ammo, and later discovered Kynoch wouldn't chamber, ..........there were more than one set of accepted measurements. This resulted in them discontinuing the chambering.

Barry

I put a post up on the 24-Hour Campfire in the "Ask Ken Howell" Forum, and he has replied. I need to post a reply, but progress is progressing.

I have found bullet diameters of .418", .421" and .423"; two versions of the shoulder angle; and three different primer types and sizes (which is more understandable) -- and maybe a migration in the CIP standard from the early days to the cartridge version we see today.

I am looking for a contact at Ruger if anyone has one I would appreciate an introduction.

jim

Jim,

Now you got me thinking!

We have a custom made 404 built on a Sako 75 action. I have never fired it, as we have no bullets for it.

Since yesterday, I have started making some flat point solid copper bullets, at 0.4226, weighing 405 grains.

I have no idea what groove diameter our rifle's barrel has, so I am going to slug it in the morning and find out.

This might turn out to be an interesting exercise, as I can change the diameter of the bullet, and see what results we get with them.

I know from past experience, in shooting .277 bullets in a .284 barrel, that although the accuracy is not that great, they still shot into about 2 inches at 100 yards!?

I have also tried shooting a group with my 375/404, using three bullets of different diameters - 0.371, 0.375 and 0.377. They printed a group of 1.3 inches at 100 yards.

I will post the results of our barrel bore dimensions in the morning.

Saeed,

I am glad to hear the you are "on the case".

A drawing is available at http://www.reloadbench.com/cartspec.html
and click on the .404 Rimless Nitro Express.

This is the drawing that I mention in the post above.

Lutz Moeller has some 404 info on his pages. Here's Norma's case drawing:

Gentlemen,

I slugged our barrel, which is from a custom maker in Germany, and it measured 0.41855.

Saeed,

That is interesting, and thank you for taking the trouble.

I had a phone call from a US gunsmith who ordered a ".404 Jeffery" barrel from Lothr Walther, and they shipped him a .418" barrel.

jim

Jim,
It has been the standard for years that 418 is the European bore and .423 it the American bore..If one is building a trouble free 404 Jefferys today, he definatly wants a .423 barrel and a clymer reamer....Then all the components will work...

Ray,

I never realized there were two sizes for this bore!?

I can make my own bullets to any diameter I wish, so taking into consideration that my rifle has a bore of 0.41855, what diameter should I make my bullets for best performance?

Saeed & Jim (et all)
CIP Shows a bullet dia (max.) of .422 (10.72m/m) they show a barrel minimum groove of same, the bore diameter is minimum .4098( 10.41 m/m) and the twist is 1 : 420 m/m or 1 turn in 16.535"
CIP shows for the 10.75 X 68 the same rate of rifling twist as .404 and a .4232 (10.75 m/m) groove diameter, bore diameter .4114"(10.45 m/m)
these are minimums and a max bullet diameter-.4232

British Rules of Proof calls out a bullet diameter of .422" for both calibers .

My 1938 cat reissued after WW II by Kynoch calls the 10.75 X 68 the 10.75 ( 423) Mauser and lists the .404 as such. 404 has a 300 gr and 400 gr bullet in each of 3 styles, the 423 a 347 grain in 3 styles.
Confused?
The story in Europe is to the effect that the last lot of RWS Ammo employed under diameter bullets in their construction. I have no verification of that.

The German Military solution for altering the old pre 1902 Mausers of small bore to the new S bore with .323 groove dia. was to open up the neck diameter by about .010" and cut the familiar long tapered "Free Bore". They did not pull the barrels to do this nor send rifles back to depot.
....there is a similar ammount of "squeeze" here going from a .422 diameter bullet down to a .418 groove. Perhaps that was some one's solution back in the old country. The Norma print shows what the brass would be ready to load and following the old established prints and to fit all the rifles made when Kynoch and DWM were still making ammo.

v e e e r r y interesting!

Ray, you posted while I was proof reading the numbers on my post. Can't comment on European versus N.American differences in bore and groove.
In some ways they literally had to start from scratch getting dimensions before CIP.

Jim Baiar- Half Moon Gun Shop, Makes the 9.3 to CIP bore and groove and I believe got talked into making the .404s likewise. like lands .0062 tall from the groove floor. Someone posted his address for Gun Goddess Rust Blue Solution a week or so back.

Saeed, johann and all,

The confusion comes from the 10.75x73 (404 Jefferys of German make) which is .418 to .419 and the 10.75 x 68 (also Germanic) that is about .422 to .423, then at some point the Germans, English and all got twisted and things got mucked up a bit....None of this is really important as they will all shoot without excessive pressure when loaded to pressures that are not excessive according to Woody at Lothar Walthar....That makes perfect since as the velocity of the 400 gr. bullets were 2000 FPS in those days....I have shot 423 bullets in a 418 bore and didn't know it for two years, oh well!

Today Woody Woodall at Lothar-Walther will sell you an American .423 or a Eurpean .418 bore...I would suggest that when ordering a 404 to make it quit clear which bore you want, as who knows who will pull it out of the bin and ship it to you, good help is hard to find these days

Jim Wisner,

I got the .404 Jeff chamber drawing from JGS today, thank you for suggesting them.

I also found a Gregor Woods Man/Magnum article (Oct '01) that covers the ammo situation pretty well. After I get all this stuff digested, I will make a summary post.

jim

My Pacific Tool Co. 404 Jeffery reamer is for .423" bullets and groove diameter.

I had a MRC new barrel in the shop last year, bore diameter was .416" and groove diameter was .424".

The one Pac Nor barrel I had was .423".

And I have seen bore diameters, for various .423 groove diameter barrels, from .413" to .418". All the barrels had .423" groove diameters.

And I had a barrel in the shop earlier this year, groove diameter was .423", but the bore diameter was .419" at the breech end, and tapered to .414" at the muzzle. Neat trick, reaming a tapered bore. Nope, it was not a BlackStar, don't even think they offered .423 barrels.

Needless to say, my collection of pilot bushings for the 404 Jeffery reamer runs from .413" to .419" in 0.0002" increments.

What all this, and the above posts, tells me, is there is no standard. You gotta measure the bore and groove diameters on a barrel before sticking a chamber reamer in the bore. I have long rods made up, that take a pilot bushing on the end, with a retaining screw like on a chamber reamer, so I can push the pilot bushings through a cleaned and oiled bore. Works like using a pin gauge to measure the bore diameter.

Pity the unsuspecting gun plumber, with a solid pilot reamer, that does not know the bore size. Could make for some difficult reaming.

And you better know the groove diameter vs. bullet diameter before touching off a round.

Ah, what a fun sport this gun tinkering is, never know exactly what will turn up on the doorstep!

Glad to have connected with this one. I realize now that this question in my latest post was a rehash of all this. Thanks JWisner for pointing me in this direction.

Jeff P

Ray you've shot Barnes .423 dia. X bullets in a .418 bore & it was OK?

No I have not shot the Barnes only standard softs and I did it unknowingly a number of years ago....

Johan,
NO, Woody said US and European, nothing was said about British which probably got their barrels from the Germans anyway....but I'll say it again, it should not apply to us in this day and time...

Use a proper US reamer such as clymer and a .423 bore barrel to build a 404 Jefferys....end of story. All else is only for our information and it is important that the gunsmith understand that we do have a standard, albiet it is unofficial.

John Ricks,
Wondering if you are the proverbial "happy camper", wrt the way your PTG 404 Jeffery reamer cuts and shoots? I talked with Dave Kiff yesterday and he gave me the rundown on how they make theirs to the "CIP 90 06" (Jun 13 '90) standard...

Throat Diam = .424"
Freebore = none
Pilot(solid) Diam = .4098"
Leade half-angle(I think this term is correct?) = 1 deg 25'

I also spoke with the gal at dave Manson Reamers this morning and she faxed me a copy of their .404 Jeffery reamer print and it appears almost identical.

...so I'm feeling a little more confident in both of these two highly regarded reamer manufacturers. All have been very supportive in answering my questions and great to work with.

The ReamerRentals gal - Shaunie rents out one of Dave Kiff's .404J reamers to the above information. I'm thinking this should work just fine with my .423" groove diameter barrel with the appropriate ~.415" floating pilot bushing. (I will sent them a soft lead breech end slug to measure from for the floating pilot bushing).

Thoughts? ...John Ricks and others

Thanks - Jeff Pfeifer

[ 06-26-2003, 10:27: Message edited by: Pfeifer ]

I shoot a custom 404 Jeffery, and enjoy it.

From my readings, it appears that Jeffery borrowed the chambering from a new German cartridge at the time.

(As an aside, I saw a German magazine ad from the 1930's that showed a gunmaker chambering for both the 10.75X73-standard- and an "improved" version of the same round)

Does anyone know how Jeffery came up with the designation of "404"?

I heard it was from "400" caliber, and "4,000" foot pounds of energy.

Any one have an idea?

Garrett

Garrett,

In my digging around I have found only one reference to the origination of .404.

Gregor Woods reported in Man/Magnum that an early slogan was "There's nothing you can't do with a .303 and a .404". I don't know if the turn of the century marketing types drove that, or is some wit observed it after the fact.

In 1993 there were three rifles announced in .404 Jeffery in the USA; by 1995 they were all gone. I am grubbing around for the "why" now. Part of it is the failure of Americans to follow CIP standards.

jim