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| One of Us |
I have a 721 that will not hold an extractor, the rifle a 270 had a 30-06 fired in it and when they forced open the bolt it stripped out the extractor and now will not hold one in looks as tho the rim that holds it in is worn. I did check the head space its ok. Is there a fix for this? or do I need to find a bolt. Never rode a bull, but have shot some. NRA life member NRA LEO firearms instructor (retired) NRA Golden Eagles member | ||
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The bolt did as it was designed to do in a scenario you describe. The nose swelled up to seal the breech in the event of excessive pressure. Big Green three rings of steel and all that. Time for a new bolt. | |||
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The fix is to bush the nose and install a Sako or M16 extractor. I doubt if that bolt face is actually swelled. If it is, it is now scrap. Or fit a 700 bolt. Which then won't fit the stock handle cutout. I've done both to 721s. And the three rings of steel safety feature promoted by Remington, actually does work. I've seen them blown up by idiots; it will swell the bolt face and maybe even the chamber, and seal the breech, but the shooter, in three cases I have seen, didn't even know it. Until he broke the handle off or couldn't open the bolt, in the other instances. Pistol powder in rifle cases; and idiot reloaders. | |||
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Does anyone have a 721 bolt handy that could measure the nose and inter rim for the extractor. I dont have a 721 or 700 right now. If it is over size who would install a M16 or Sako extractor would you need the whole rifle or just the bolt?? Never rode a bull, but have shot some. NRA life member NRA LEO firearms instructor (retired) NRA Golden Eagles member | |||
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| one of us |
Take your calipers and measure the bolt body diameter behind the locking lugs. Then measure at the bolt nose and compare. If it is swollen, then a new bolt is in order. If not, you may be able to salvage by installing a replacement extractor. You may need to peen the edge of the extractor groove to hold it in. Do this after installing the extractor! | |||
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I read that it won't now hold an extractor, so the dimensions don't matter. You will know if the bolt or nose is swollen because it will stick when you operate it. I doubt it is swollen because your incident was not the result of high pressure; just misdirected gas. The person who installs the external extractor does not need the rifle. Just the bolt. I have 721 bolts, but measuring them won't help you; I already installed Sako extractors. Because they would no longer hold an extractor. Might be a common occurrence. | |||
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I think that the whole thing with this bolt maybe a problem . Upon closer study found that there is no rivet hole for the extractor and the nose is a different color than the body. It looks like to me that the nose was turned off and a new one was fitted either pressed or soldered on and turned to fit. Perhaps a new bolt or bolt body maybe in the works unless an after market extractor could be fitted to this one. Never rode a bull, but have shot some. NRA life member NRA LEO firearms instructor (retired) NRA Golden Eagles member | |||
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Although Remington bolts appear to be one piece, they are actually built up from separate parts that are brazed together. The bolt head is a separate part. Colors may vary. Here is the repop extractor. I have installed them. They all needed staking of the recess to hold them in; don't use a rivet. Once you locate the extractor, stake the boltface internal rim to prevent the extractor from rotating in its recess. https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/634810 | |||
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| One of Us |
721's and 722's do not have riveted extractors. They clip in a grove similar to late Rem 700's, but they are quite different and they do not interchange. Ray Gregg of Bear Creek Guns in Washington state used to modify 721 bolts for rivet type, but he has passed on. Nice to know someone is making a repop, OEM's dried up a few years ago. | |||
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I would like to find someone that can/would install a Sako extractor on this 721 bolt. Apparently the owner had taken it to a number of people to have an extractor installed but they would pop out after a couple of rounds fired. It looks like to my untrained eye that there is not enough metal left hold it reliably Never rode a bull, but have shot some. NRA life member NRA LEO firearms instructor (retired) NRA Golden Eagles member | |||
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It will cost $150 to install a Sako extractor. Plus the cost of the parts and shipping. | |||
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That's because they didn't stake it in.
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Time comes....why fool around with crap like that The 721/722's are not a system 98. Bottom line was "Make it as cheap as possible" It's as close as one can come to a "throw away gun" | |||
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Who said it was a "system 98 " ? That settles it. I think I'll just sell my 300 H&H 721 for whatever the scrap value might be. Or, maybe just shitcan it and eliminate the hassles. Any takers ? | |||
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Maybe I should just scrap all my Remington 700s also because there really aren't many changes between the 721 and 700. Quick - somebody send out a note to every law enforcement agency and tell them they need to to scrap their Remington 700 sniper rifles because they only represent minor improvements over those throw away Remington 721s. Better send the same note to the armorers at Quantico for the Marine Corps. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Forget the Marines; The Army uses many thousands more small arms than they do and all of them are push feed. Also, all of our Machine Guns are push feed (except one) They all work fine, even in Combat, which is, arguably, a more important place for reliability than mere rich gentlemen hunting defenseless animals for sport. As for the 'system 98"; as I have said before; the CRF/claw extractor (The 93) was developed, NOT for reliability, but to prevent semi trained soldiers from jamming up their weapons under stress. The German army did not see the need to adopt such a design for ten more years. Why? They trained to fight under duress. Surely a sportsman hunting game, can learn to operate his equipment properly. (We all know they refuse to do so and cause all manner of problems for themselves). Now, back to the 721; that extractor does wear out, and that is why Remington changed it on the 700. Has not relevance to a 98. Yes, it does cost more to make claw extractors, but most bolt actions are not make like that any more. | |||
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See Learning Point 7 above. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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As De Santis said" Flak gets heavy when you're on target" For some years, I was a Remington Warranty gunsmith, and was even offered a position with Remington's R&D Ther's some darn marvelous enineering and imagination that went into the Remington firearms line up..that I admit. On the flip side, as far as the 700 desiogn, Remington was locked into the "Three rings of steel" The fix was to install a Sako type extraxtor, but we were warned that suoch a modification voided all guarantees. The argument that push feeds work just fine in the military fails to acknowledge that there is not a single push feed military I know of that uses the "Chinese finger prison" style of extractor (except the 700 bolt gun) . What do they use?.. they use a Sako style! The weakest parts of the 721-700 actions are the extractor, trigger/safety and brazed on bolt handle. Inherently accurate? You bet. These defects, along with throwing parts at the 1100's were enough to keep a warranty shop pretty busy. The other famous,Remington gun, the 870....Darn fine and well proven reliable shotgun...almost never needed work and is a compliment and no brainer addition to a law enforecment line up. These forums and comments cannot help but be influenced by preference and loyalty and most of all... experience. Nobody like to hear that their kids are ugly. Oh...the last variant of the 700 (M 24) sniper rifle in the US milliary was in 2014, being replaced by a semi auto Sniper rifle. | |||
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If we are going to throw quotes around, I am reminded of two: 1. No man is more hated than the one that speaks the truth... 2. People will forgive others for being wrong, they rarely forgive you for being right, when you being right makes them look silly and those quotes as well yours apply to everybody Duane can you explain then if the Remington 700 has all these flaws why is it the basis for the USMC and US Army sniper rifle for the past 40 plus years with no changes to the extractor and as far as I know and based on researching this issue and talking to one former armorer - no changes to the trigger or re-attaching of the bolt handle. Does anyone know how many militaries and or law enforcement agencies use the System 98 for their sniper rifle? By the way with the nature of urban military combat and overwatch requirements - sniper deployments are no longer just one shot and your done engagements. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Harry Selby famously backed up clients with 98 Mauser in 416 Rigby foe several decades, but he also owned and loved a model 721 in 30-06. I’m a 98 fanatic but I own a very accurate 721 in 7mm-06, and I’ll never turn my nose up at it. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre: If we are going to throw quotes around, I am reminded of two: 1. No man is more hated than the one that speaks the truth... 2. People will forgive others for being wrong, they rarely forgive you for being right, when you being right makes them look silly and those quotes as well yours apply to everybody Duane can you explain then if the Remington 700 has all these flaws why is it the basis for the USMC and US Army sniper rifle for the past 40 plus years with no changes to the extractor and as far as I know and based on researching this issue and talking to one former armorer - no changes to the trigger or re-attaching of the bolt handle. Does anyone know how many militaries and or law enforcement agencies use the System 98 for their sniper rifle? By the way with the nature of urban military combat and overwatch requirements - sniper deployments are no long Appreciate your wisdom and insiht. But.... You're adding your own words to my comment. Never once mentiond the 700. You did! Maybe you've been watchingt oo much CNN? | |||
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Exactly. You could not give me one. Too light for a boat anchor and too weak for a crow bar. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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How many modern military and police agencies use a Mauser 98? None. I own every make of rifle ever made. I train on them and learned how to use them. Never had a problem with any of them. For those who do not know how to operete their equipment, they are the ones who will have problems. Try this test; give an original 98 Mauser to an American shooter; he will jam it up or break the extractor, soon. They were designed to feed only from the magazine. The German soldier was trained to only load from clips. Do you guys really think the millions of Remington clip extractor rifles are all broken or nonfunctional? Know anything about Army doctrine or TTPs. I sort of, do. Wake up. | |||
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Duane, You probably want to read your own post. You never once mentioned the 700? Here is your post from above, you mentioned it three times and describe its shortcommings.
Doesn't make much sense to continue a discussion given the above. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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| one of us |
Well, as a former Remington warranty gunsmith I have a few observations. The M700/720/721/600. etc., is a simplified reproduction of the M30/1917 Enfield design. Done for reasons of economy of production. This is obvious from the bolt and trigger guard designs. Remington also had one helluvan affection for brazing and riveting. The big departure was the "three rings of steel". Walker patents describe this attribute as quoted by Otteson. Effectively creating a stopgap obturation safeguard of the bolt nose. Albeit at the sacrifice of the bolt. The extractor being the weak link. When properly fabricated and hardened, the extractor is a marvel. I've seen it tear the rim off stuck cases. But it is hampered by chamber condition. Unless the chamber is kept in decent shape, extraction forces can play havoc with the extractor. It can deform the extractor mortise and in the case of the Rem 740-742 SA, can crack the bolt nose due to excessive extraction forces. I've also examined a M700 rifle that had a .308 Win fired in a .25-06 chamber! Yes, they will chamber. The bolt nose expanded as advertised and obturated the chamber. No gas reached the shooter. Killed a deer though! After hammering the bolt open, measurements indicated no damage to the barrel or receiver. A bolt replacement put the rifle back in action. So, the learning element here is maintenance. Keep you rifle in good "nick" and it should serve you well. | |||
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Duane is 100% correct, the 721 and 722 were and are junk metal and cheap wood as intended by Remington, and a source of many Law suits..and any one that condemns control feed or the Mauser system chases rabbits and howls at the moon.  spare me the rreference to the fact that our government chose the 721, that land of the bobos, they armed the FBI with 38s, the sent our boys the M-16 that failed miserably, The CiA can screw up a anvil with a powder puff with their choice of assassin rifle before they reallized they were not to assinate anyone, Atf sold guns and ammo to the cartel in a round about way, and on and on, I worked for 43 years of watching such BS..Find some better reference please.. BTW they purchase guns etc. by the cheapest bid..Most LE Agency's ATF, US Customs, DEA and others are issued ceased firearms and vehicles and ammo. They also have the option of using any firearm that they can qualify with including ones they own../some like the USFS are issued firearms and encouraged to use them, but not written in stone. The USFS issued Berreta's the club of heavy junk pistols. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Having worked in Army Procurement for a few years (Tank Armament), I can tell you that we do not just issue contracts to the lowest bidder. That would be crazy. Lowest RESPONSIBLE bidder; IE, they must pass all the tests and meet all performance criteria. You do realize that "The Government" does not procure anything; each agency is responsible for it's own materiel and acts alone. I am only talking about the US Army. And the Army never used 721s that I know of. Just learn and train on your equipment and you won't have a problem. I don't. Controlled round feed? At what point on a Rem 700 is the round not controlled? | |||
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I had not opened this forum for quite a while. When I noticed a thread titled "721 extractor problem" was still at the top of the list, I figured it must have turned into a pissing contest, because the subject matter wasn't that complicated. The 721 extractor is one I am inclined to replace with a Sako or Weatherby type. Regards, Bill | |||
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