I'm considering building a combinated barrel set in 9.3x74R and 450NE 3 1/4 on a Tikka 512S O/U action.

The 9.3 will be the under barrel to cater for the long shots and the 450NE will be the top barrel to act as a short range insurance.

This way I'll have a long range (max 300 yards) option together with a real thumper for close range. With 450grn FN solids for the 450NE and the 270grn FN solids in the 9.3 this will be suitable for buff and maybe even elephant.

Low powered 1-4x24 Kahles in QD swing mounts on top of it with iluminated recticle.

The 9.3x74R will be adjusted to the 450NE POI with the standard mechanism the Tikkas have, so regulating wont be an issue.

The rifle will have two triggers, ejectors and the auto-safety will be de-activated, it will have a shallow V-rear-sight with flip-up night front sight.

This will be my spare rifle for Africa, together with my CZ550 in 416 Rigby - a nice Rigby combination.

I think even this is a non traditional setup it will be a hell of a versatile combination in the bush, this way one is perfectly ready for all hunting situations encountered in Africa.

What do you guys think about such a freaky combo gun?

Will the O/U action of the Tikka 512 withstand the power of the 450NE?

A new 512SC can be had for $ 600 in a shotgun version, so if the action goes of the face, I'll get a new one for maybe less money than people pay to get their actions tightened (like Ray does for Sweet-Thang once a year...)

Feel free to flame away - tell me all the technical reasons not to do it please!

Cheers

Franz

Franz,
for various reasons, I would not personally chosoe this open.. but, if I was going to, I would
1: invert your choice of barrels... 450 on the BOTTOM, 9.3 on the top, and regulate it to shoot for the 9.3 far... and then muck with the 450 loads to hit POI at 50 yards. This will do a couple other things... a: the top barrel is "easier on felt recoil" so your long range fine bead shots could cause less recoil. b: since the 9,3 is going to be long range, you'll have a better chance of the sights hitting (since they'll be on the top barrel) c: since your heavy will be on the bottom (left) it will be on the back trigger, thereby training you to use the back trigger for serious work... like having the solid in the left barrel.

2: you might as well get a set of scattergun tubes for it too... and have a bird gun for the odd potmeat

sounds like a fun gun... just not my personal choice.

jeffe

Jeffe

Thanks for your reply, here are my reasons for the location of the barrels:

1) if I have the 9.3 on the bottom the trajectory for the 9.3 will be favored because of the lower position angle to the sight line.

2) the top barrel will only be used for a second shot mostly, so the motion from the lighter bottom caliber barrel will allow to re-engage to the target faster. After the second shot with the top barrel I'll have to reload anyway...

3) the trigger for the top-barrel is the 2nd one - like firing the left barrel in an SxS.

4) the distance between the sight-line and the barrels is more critical for the 450NE (stopping a buff in close quaters) so I think it is better to have it on top next to the sights

5) if I'll have to reload quickly during a nasty situation, I'll rather get in a 450 than a 9.3, so the top-barrel is also an advantage.

6) to adjust POI the Tikka provides a mechanism to adjust the lower barrel to the top barrel, I think the 450NE gives a stable basis and the thinner 9.3 barrel will benefit from the more stable rest of the 450 barrel. (I also fear that the 458 barrels can't be bent enough to be adjusted too - this is not a problem with the 9.3 barrels)

Anyway good points - cheers Jeffe!

An interesting combo...I didn't realize Tikka would build custom combinations of barrels.

I have a Valmet 412 set, which is similar enough that the Valmet will accept Tikka bbls. My barrel sets are

9.3x74 over 9.3x74,
.30-06 over .30-06,
.308 Win over .308 Win.,
.223 Rem over 12 ga (especially for turkeys),
and 12 ga over 12 ga.

I have a few questions to ask, which would concern me if I was contemplating such an order...

1. Have you ever owned/fired a Tikka 512/Valmet 412? My experience is that with any combo except the 12 gauges and .223, the action is NOT easy to open if both barrels have been fired.

In fact, the reason I have the .308 barrel set in addition to the .30-06s is to try to get a .30 set which opens reliably. However, the .308's don't open reliably on my rifle either. I returned one set of .308 barrels to get another set fitted, but the second set opens no better. It takes almost super-human effort and a full minute or two of cooling to open either of my .30 sets if both barrels are fired.

As a lion can do 100 yards in something like 3 seconds from a standing start, I shouldn't wish to have to wait two minutes, or even one minute, to reload.

The 9.3 barrels, being for a lower pressure cartridge, open much better but they still occasionally hang up for a few moments too(apparently until the barrels cool a bit).

2. Have you considered the potential problems of grabbing the correct cartridge for the correct barrel if you ever REALLY, REALLY NEED a quick reload under life or death pressures? I know that for me, such a combo would probably leave me more at risk than having simply both barrels built for the same cartridge. Either the 9.3 or the .450 would likely do, but if possibly hunting dangerous game I'd definitely go with the .450.

I've owned a pair of 450 NE rifles, and they definitely pack considerably more clout than the 9.3...which isn't the equivalent of a .375 H&H in my personal experience.

3. If you can give me the name of someone at the factory who would be willing to accept an order for a pair of .450 3-1/4" tubes, or better yet, a pair of .450/.400 3-1/4" tubes, I will be eternally in your debt.

Best wishes,

AC

[ 03-25-2003, 04:54: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ]

Daydreamer
Your idea of a safari bergstutzen has merit. Remember that Americans have no tradition of combination guns, drillings or mountain carbines.
While hunting Brown Bear, Black Bear, and Caribou in Alaska, and Black Bear in Montana I thought a Safari Bergstutzen [I prefer the side by side] in 7x65R, left bbl, rear trigger, and a 450/400 in the right bbl, front trigger, would be a very good combo, sort of a Mountain Cape Rifle. Both bbls regulated for iron sights at 100 yards, with a scope in claw mounts for the 7x65R bbl to 300 yards. The same combo would work for general hunting most any where, as would your combo.
In fact for my first trip to Africa in June of 2004 I plan to take a 450 No2 double and a 9.3x74R double.
You are correct in your thoughts for the positioning of the bbls in an OU.
Alberta Canuck, yes you would have to have a "system" for reloading and practice it.
Daydreamer I realize you are trying to do this on the Tikka action, but I think Johan Fanzoi may have the best answer... which is a Safari Drilling {my name for it] that I once read about. It was a 470 Nitro double with the third bbl an 8x57R. I would prefer a 450/400 and a 7x65R. Now if there is a better "all-round rifle than that I do not know what it would be. Heym will make a Safari Bergstutzen is several different calibres including a 500/416 [right bbl] and a 7x65R [left bbl]. You could also get extra bbls up to a 500 Nitro double and a set of 9,3x74R double bbls with a set of 20ga. bbls. I think this would only count as one gun....[tell the airline people to shove it].
Let us know how your idea works if you have it made.

[ 03-25-2003, 06:01: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

Alberta Canuck

I have two tikkas with three barrels in DR 7x65R, DR 9,3x74R and a 12/76 shotgun barrel.

I know about the problems to open the action when you have fired 2 consecutive shots from my 7x65R barrel set. I found that when I have too much oil in the action the problem is worse than when I clean it up pretty good.
I haven't had that problem with the 9.3x74R - even with very stout loads there is no problem at all.

Anyway - I think when I can't get the job done with two shots on a lion at 100yards - I will not need the next cartidges because I will then be toast anyway... But remember this will be my spare gun - I admit it will be a toy, mostly used to hunt pigs here in Austria - but we will see maybe it turns out very reliable.

Regarding Marocchi - I'm dealing with Mr./Mrs. Olivanda Ziliani. I will let you know what the custom shop tells me about the barrel set in 450 or 450/400. If they wont do it - very likely - I have already talked to my gunsmith who is willing to give it a try.

NE450 #2

The very reason for doing this is the idea of having the right tool for the specific moment. I think whatever nice DGR you have - there will be situations where a different caliber or setup would be much better.

With this combination of the 9.3x74R and the 450NE I'll have the right tool at hand no matter what I'll have to take care of - the 9.3 with the 230grn HVs is good enough for 300yards up to the heaviest plains game - with the 270grn FN solids it could be used for braining an elephant too.

On the other hand I'll have a short range big bore to cater for the very big stuff like buff, hypo, elephant and maybe a lion that is in a bad mood comming around the next bush.

My primary gun will be my 416 Rigby - but I wouldn't feel less save to use the Safari Bergstutzen for everything (had the same idea to name it).

What I would be very interested in are the calculations of the forces generated by a 450NE compared to the 308 or 30/06. This will tell if the action will be stiff to open or if it wont be a problem. Can someone please calculate this for me? Especially the force where the cartidge head-space is would be of interest to me (?bolt thrust?).

Franz

NE 450 #2

Fogot about the hint to Franzoj and Heym - what is the going price for kidneys today? I figured out an arm and a leg wouldn't fit the bill alone...

Have you seen what they ask for this guns??????

Whe are talking about something like $ 70,000 or so.

Definately not my price range. The barrel set done by my gunsmith based on the DR set in 9.3x74R
will be around $ 1,200 - enough but quite resonable compared to the other choices.

Franz

And what about .500/.416 o/u ? "Flat" trajectory as 9.3x74 and stopping power near .450 nitro ? But If you would like to stand with 9.3/.450, I would like to choose 8x75RS than 9.3x74R . . .

Jiri

I already have the barrel set for the 9.3x74R - so I will stick to it to use the existing barrel on the bottom.

I also have my reloading gear in place for the 9.3x74R.

With the 230grn HVs the trajectory is plenty good and the 9.3 caliber covers the edge to big game better than all of the 7mm or 8mm.

Franz

Since the TOP barrel has the sights, the irregularities in the barrel would be compounded for longer shots.. someone please explain the concept of "better trajectory" from the bottom barrel, as a "safe" trade off to having the sights actualy ON the barrel being shot?
In particular, if the 450 was regulated to 50, from the bottom, it's pitch angle (we are talking O/U) would be fairly steep, and would cross LOS quickly. Since O/U are known for being "easier" to regulate.....

any, I am confused on this ...

jeffe

The problems some have had with opening a fired rifle is usually caused by an improper method of withdrawing the firing pins.

Look closely.......If the rifle has independent firing pins, with or without return springs it's NOT a dangerous game gun.

Ideally the firing pins will be withdrawn from the breech face by action of the top break lever and not the cocking bar. Top quality DGRs were all made this way......that's why the good ones aren't cheap.

Jeffe

If I have to use the open sights, the 450NE will be my primary important barrel, so I want to have the sights on the 450NE - remember this is the one for the very nasty stuff...
If I'm limited to open sights, I'll much likely limit my shooting to 100yards anyway.

On the other hand the barrel on the bottom has a steeper angle to the sightline, giving more angle upwards to the sightline, resulting in a slightly flatter trajectory (somewhere +2-3" at 300yards.)

Remember: I will sight in the 450NE at 50yards dead on, and then regulate the 9.3x74R to it.
Maybe I didn't get your point?

JBelk

Interesting point about the firing pins, because I can clearly see that on my 7x65R the brass on the under barrel is clearly marked by a scratch of the firing pin. This is the gun where I find it to open harder from time to time - havn't had that problem on the 9.3x74R rifle.

Is there a way to improve the way the firing pins return? Stronger spring to pull it back?

Mr. Belk can you possibly enlighten me in regard of what forces are produced by a 450NE compared to a 30/06 for instance? I would apreciate some insight on what stress will be put on the O/U action compared to more common smaler cartridge and where the major problems are with such a setup.

Cheers

Franz

I am sure Jack Belk has hit the nail on the head regards the "opening" problem of the Valmet M 412 or Tikka M 512. Because of this design, I would never count on mine as a dangerous game rifle, regardless of cartridge.

That was the point I was trying to make gently in my first post. They ARE a fun gun, and in O/U 9.3 make a fairly serious brushy country elk or moose rifle, if you find their handing comfortable. But they are not a rig to risk your life with, in my opinion.

I must add that my Valmet has always been one of the more awkward handling rifles, to my tastes, that I have ever tried. I have had a fairly large number of S/S doubles, and they have been a joy to handle, whether of English or mainland European descent. Probably the nicest handling three I had were a WR hand-detachable boxlock in 450-400 3-1'4", a Simson (of Suhl) .470 Nitro boxlock, and a Purdey side-lock .450 3-1/4" BP Express hammer gun. I also found the Browning O/U more comfortable to handle, though more expensive and still not on a par with the S/S.

It is my understanding, though this may be in error, that Valmet built a very few O/U rifles in .375 H&H but didn't ever list them in NA because they were often impossible to open after firing. They did list the .375 Winchester as available for a while, but not long. Maybe they were afraid too many tinkerers would rechamber them to H&H anyway?

My thought for having .450/.400 barrels for my Valmet, is to have a fun rig for coastal Roosevelt elk. Roosevelt elk are not hard to kill, nor dangerous under normal circumstances, but they sure can disappear in all that viney maple, salal (sp), and re-prod, even when hard hit. And I could use the same Barnes-X bullets I now use in another rifle.

I think your proposed two caliber Valmet would be great for pigs & moose in Austria/Hungary/Czech Republic, or the "Scandahoovian" countries. Just would hate to be in a "tight" with it in Africa or on one of the Alaskan islands.

I very much appreciate your information regarding your gunsmiths. Please let me know what their decisions are, and how to reach them.

AC

P.S. - Yes, that 7x65-R is a great round. I have one now in a Ruger #1, done by my elk-hunting buddy, the late Paul Marquart. It will shoot factory H-Mantle RWS in about 5/8-3/4" at 100 yards, and is a real killer. On a control hunt a few years ago, I downed two elk with it as they crossed a trail...neither went more than 30 yards, though both were on a dead run when struck.

What was really interesting was that after we gralloched the two elk, I found both empty cases in my right front pants pocket. Habit is a terrible thing.....

[ 04-02-2003, 22:46: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ]

While the firing pin may well be the cause of your opening problems, there may be another answer. Once upon a time I had a S&W 22 Jet revolver. The 22 Jet is a 357 Mag case tapered and necked down to .22, very tapered. If I did not clean the chambers and cartridges with some kind of degreaser [I think S&W recommended lighter fluid] when the revolver was fired the case would set back and lock up the cylinder. You might try degreasing your chambers and your cartridges and see if the problem goes away.
Daydreamer if you go with the 450 Nitro be sure and try the Hornady 350 RNSP on pigs. It sure works good in my 450 No2.

I'll give degreasing a shot, but doubt that is the problem for two reasons...

1) I don't leave my barrels or actions oily at any time. I learned long ago that in damp climates that simply acts to hold water in contact with the steel, under the oil ...and

2) I have long been surprised that the firing pins haven't actually broken in my Valmet. There are "drag marks" on the bottom half of the cartridge case heads from the top barrel, and "troughs" (deep drag marks) on those from the bottom barrel. Clearly the firing pins are not retracting initially after firing.

The pins do seem to retract if one waits long enough, so the answer is likely two or three fold:

1. Remove the pins and polish them well

2. Thoroughly clean the recess into which the pins retract...may have to polish those recesses too...

3. Experiment with stronger springs to see if pin retraction can be made reliable without harming the reliability of firing the primers.

No matter what, I would not be anxious to risk my life with this design.

The rifle is fun to play with, though, so am not about to throw it away. Will be fun to see if it can be tuned to be reliable. If so, am going to also get a set of 7x65 barrels for it, as I really like that cartridge.

While we're on this sort of subject, has anyone out there ever used a TCR-'83 rifle to put on a medium-bore barrel such as a flanged .400? Or is that perhaps a bit too much for the action?

I should think the TCR might be O.K. strength-wise, as it has no apparent problems with the pressures of the .30'06 and that ilk. Of course with some of the large-medium bore flanged catridges the area putting thrust against the standing breech would be considerably larger...

JBelk, what do you think?

AC

[ 03-26-2003, 11:39: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ]