My .375 H&H Whitworth Express is coming back from its action job. I am already thinking about restocking it -- the factory stock is great for irons but too much drop for Talley rings.

Thinking about various options including the Acrabond laminate. Would crossbolts be needed on a laminate stock? How many? The factory stock is only bolted behind the recoil lug -- what about the lug under the barrel, or behind the magazine?

If crossbolts are -- how do you install them? Glassed or not? I see Brownell's sells a B-Square jig. Is that just for the one behind the recoil lug? More tips, techniques would be welcome.

John,

Other people can answer better than I re: need for a crossbolt. I like them, so all my rifles have at least one.

I have the B-square jig -- it works great, and yes, it is just for the one behind the lug area. If you measure really carefully and use a drill press, you can do just as well lining up the holes -- but the jig also comes with a countersink, which is nice, and a set of spanner wrenches. I'd say it's worth the money.

Todd

John - The only laminate stock I have is the factory one on a Rem 600 in 350 Rem Mag. It doesn't have a cross-bolt, but I probably haven't shot it enough to put it to a good test anyway. I do have a Mark X in 375 H&H and the factory walnut stock (no-crosbolt)that it came in was in very bad shape both behind the recoil lug and behind the magazine box. The stock had been bedded from the lug to the forend, but the wood and bedding material behind the lug was crushed. There was also a split that started behind the magazine box and continued past the trigger inletting well into the tang area. I put it in a Bell & Carlson Classic stock which has metal inserts cast into the stock behind the recoil lug and the magazine box. I have nearly 250 handloaded rounds through this gun now with no apparent problems. Hope this is helpful information.

John,
The B Square fixture is for the area immediately beind the recoil lug. That is plenty for a .375 and I do not bed the magazine so it rests against the wood so you do not need one behind that area anyway. If it is touching there I would relieve the wood so it doesn't. I do not glass them in. They work by putting the wood in compression. When the recoil is applied to this area it has to overcome the compressive strength before it starts affecting the wood. So in essence, the wood is in a stored strength position. The bolt also acts like rebar.

Someone on another forum steered me toward the Jack Lott article in the 1984 Gun Digest -- I happened to have a copy right there.

Lott said he always put in a bolt to reinforce behind the magazine, and another behind the trigger. (He used hardware store nuts & bolts epoxied in blind.) His argument was that recoil tried to compress the whole stock, from the recoil lug on back, and splits came from the thin parts spreading away around the magazine and trigger cuts.

Of course, Lott was talking about .458s on up, but is there any reason not to do this? On a laminate? I assume a laminate would tend to split between the glue lines?

John

I always put in two on heavy kickers. The first is located behind the recoil lug and the second traditionally betwwen the trigger and mag box. I've also put in some behind the rear tang. I've never had a stock split. I too use the B-square kit, but have machined it to allow for it's use to install the crossbolt behind the rear of the mag box. Frankly, I hate the look of a one high, one low crossbolt system and on those actions, I tend to put in the rear crossbolt behind the rear tang screw. I also steelbed theses areas quite thoroughly.-Rob

John,
I personally have not found the Talleys to high for the comb on a Whitworth, but I'm of the M-70 low comb generation and all my guns are set up for iron sights first and foremost, then I shoot them with a scope also, it does not bother me in the least, all one has to do is put the cross hairs on the animal and jerk the trigger in a controlled manner..All else is twaddle old boy! , that ought to strike a nerve to the less educated on such matters, and those who have read too much hype!!

I believe laminate wood from our suppliers to be too soft, and about the consistency of plywood in many cases..there is some good laminate dealers out there however, so buyer beware is the word....I have most of mine laminated by Mel Smart and I use hard turkish walnut and Maple or just Turkish...

I always use the jig to install cross bolts, it makes a better, faster job...

I am a believer in glass bedding, double cross bolting, the recoil lug and tang areas, preferably in steel bed and an extra barrel lug, also glassed about 5 inches forward of the chamber. I also believe after all is fitted and blued one should remove the cross bolts, grease'em up and glass them in the rifle to void any gap or space between them and the wood...The magazine box should be fitted properly to also act as a recoill lug....I'm talking 458 Lott and up.....A 375, 416 and 404 are fine with double cross bolts and proper bedding or with only glass bedding job....

One think to consider is with these big bores even the best of bedding jobs will eventually pound out a gap in the recoil lug and its down hill from that point on...fortunatly most big bores don't get shot much and that is their salvation...Save those beatiful bedding jobs for the lesser calibers, they hold up beatifully with conventional bedding and proper wood...

I know of several big bores by very well known Custom Gun makers that have split on Safari to one degree or another simply because they were conventionally bedded....Finn Aagard told me of one breaking in the wrist by a fine gunmaker...Poop happens guys, so cover all the basis and enjoy your safari, tie up the loose ends before you leave....

John,
I think a second recoil lug on the barrel is a much better solution than a second cross bolt. The second one does look good but unless you are using the rear of the magazine to transmit recoil it does nothing. But it does not do any harm. If you are a belt AND suspender kind of guy, that would be a good approach. The idea with any system is to distribute the recoil. The further you get from the point of recoil trasmittal (recoil lug) the less the effect on the stock.

I must admit, Ray did strike a nerve. I don't understand why I want to be hunting for the crosshairs when I pull the rifle up on an anumal that is only a few yards away (which is most of the shots I get). The critters I hunt usually aren't waiting around for me to do things like that. I prefer both eyes open and the crosshairs centered in front of my right eye when the rifle reaches my shoulder. Anything else could be life threatening with some of the critters that hang out in my woods. Of course the only Ursus I ever saw shot in a full charge was from the hip, so I don't suppose it mattered what the comb height on that rifle was. Care to enlighten us Ray?

Rattrap,
I doubt that I could enlighten you, as your mind is made up, but I can shoot a low comb gun with a scope as fast and as accurate as anyone can a higher comb, like I said I was raised in the old M-70 days and the first Weaver scopes, we learned to shoot them that way, had no choice and a blessing it has been...I shoot a few dangerous creatures also and it has worked for me...and I'm the only one that counts when the chips are down and they have been...

My style of shooting allows me perfect access to irons and scope, I don't have to compromise, you do.....I don't have to use ugly very high irons and I can get my scopes really low...I wouldn't have it any other way....Nothing I planned but I sure glad it happened....

Anyone who has hoisted one of my guns, will tell you it works for them also, at least so far....
I think were a little spoiled, I see a lot of PH's, natives and other outback folks that make do and adjust to whatever they shoot and they do as well as anybody else without all this hoopla BS about it has to be this way or that way...

You have now been enlightened, maybe

Ray - I'm sure your way is better, but it is hard to believe you can still use those open sights. It's Ratltrap not Rattrap.

No argument here. All of my scopes are mounted low, what I fit is the stock not the mount. But I have an open mind if there is a better way. As long as I'm not trying to make my mind up after the teeth sink in.