An elderly women is going to let me look at a shotgun that her husband brought back in the last big war. It is engraved, and has a 1931 date. It has a peep sight and the words Neuenradl I/westf Wilh. Muhler.Sohne. Sorry I don't have any more.
Butch

Neuenrade in Westfalen, Grmany is the name of the town.

Wilh. Muhler Sohne would be Wihelm Muhler & Son or possibly Wilhelm Müller check the spelling.

Post all the proof marks from the barrels and the watertable plus good pictures. Peep sight suggest there may be a rifle barrel.

I will get some photos. It has a wood trigger guard. The peep sight is adjustable and is marked HVBERTUSGEWEHR.It also folds down. Each barrel is marked 16 with a 16in a circle followed by a U. It has a trap door in the bottom of the stock to hold 5 shells she said. What can you do to clean a little without hurting something?
Butch

Sent Michael the photos. I don't understand the engraving as it has deer figures on it. If I could post the photos, I would.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Sent Michael the photos. I don't understand the engraving as it has deer figures on it. If I could post the photos, I would.
Butch

Sounds neat! send me the pics and I'll post them for you if Michael doesn't.

snargfarg@aol.com

Terry

Any paradox rifling in those barrels, given the peep sight?

Worth a look.

Garrett

Use vaseline to clean. Let it sit on the gun, preferably in sunlight, for a while then wipe off with clean soft cloth.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
I will get some photos. It has a wood trigger guard. The peep sight is adjustable and is marked HVBERTUSGEWEHR.It also folds down. Each barrel is marked 16 with a 16in a circle followed by a U. It has a trap door in the bottom of the stock to hold 5 shells she said. What can you do to clean a little without hurting something?
Butch

Butch

Hvbertus is in reference to St. Hubert who is the patron saint of hunters in Europe, especially Germany,Austria and Belgium.

Gewehr means rifle in German.

Bill

Sent photos to Terry also. I couldn't see the rifling in the photos. It does have a sling swivel on the barrels.
Butch

Butch I sent you an email. If someone else could post the photos that would help.

Pictures for Butch. I think the triggerguard is horn, not wood

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Sent photos to Terry also. I couldn't see the rifling in the photos. It does have a sling swivel on the barrels.
Butch

Usually firearms configured with sling swivels were carried by foresters or farmers. If I remember correctly the word Krup denotes a type of German steel or it's toughness. At least thats what my Grandfather told me.

Bill

Krupp was/is a steel refiner/manufacturer, they had a hand in most things firearm&military. They made all the big cannons in WWI, U-Boat hulls, etc.

not uncommon to see on German firearms, I think the photo shows "Krupp Stahl"- "Krupp Steel".



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp_Trial

www.thyssenkrupp.com/

quote:

Peep sight suggest there may be a rifle barrel.

barrel inserts, maybe?

quote:

It has a wood trigger guard

could it be made of horn? many were/are by German makers.

I copied and enlarged the photo of the fore end lever, and it looks maybe to be of horn, also- but I'm looking at photos, not the real article.

The visible proof marks on the left barrel flat include:
The U with crown and eagle - Definitive proof, in use 1891-1939,
The W and crown indicates a shotgun barrel with choke,
The S and crown is a shotgun barrel,
The 16 in a circle is gauge,
NITRO and eagle - Nitro powder proof for shotguns, in use from 1912 - 1939.

What I didn't see was:
G and crown indicating a barrel proofed for solid projectiles, or a
S superimposed over a W and a crown, indicating a rifled choke.

It's obviously a once fine 16 ga in rough shape, with Lefauchaux style bolting and an interesting peep site, which made me look for the rifling and solids marks.

It would appear to be a Wilhelm Müller & Son
Everything Yeti listed is correct . I believe the S and crown is a cylinder bore No choke or Slug barrel . Check with a Micrometer to be sure .
Tin Can is correct.
"Krupp Stahl"- "Krupp Steel is a particular type of firearms proof Steel which also happens to be made by a Steel mill which is also named Krupp.

Least wise on My drilling that's what it is .

Barrel swivels were common for " Foresters " or Game wardens .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

On top of the frame I see the stag with the crucifix that kinda fouled up St. Hubertus's hunting career. The stag told him he was going to hell if he didn't stop hunting all the time and go back to church. St Hubertus is the "the patron saint of hunters, mathematicians, opticians and metalworkers". Our type of guy.

Doesn't look in rough shape so much to me, as in need of some TLC. Only fly in the ointment could be if it is off face or wobbly on lockup. Chambers are probably short(er) than today's.

Try vaseline and a soft rag on the wood, brass / bronze wool with a good oil on the rest, and you will be amazed.

I'd buy it if the price was decent. Very neat gun.

BTW what kind of cartidges fit in the cartridge trap - shotgun shells or something smaller? The whole picture with peep sight, etc. doesn't quite add up.

TG

If you look close you will a set trigger as well, I suspect there was another set of rifle barrels with the gun originally.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Petrov:
If you look close you will a set trigger as well, I suspect there was another set of rifle barrels with the gun originally.

Aha! I think that is it. I found it odd that
1) it has an adjustable peep sight
2) it lacks a visible front sight
3) a shotgun butt has a cartridge trap

A set trigger clinches it.

Go back to where you found it and try to drum up the barrels! Hopefully someone is not using them as a cheater bar, to crack walnuts, drive a chisel at the workbench, or some ridiculous thing like that.

Yikes! Just re-read your post. Given the history the barrels are probably back in Germany being used as a cheater bar, hammer, or some other awful thing.

Too bad. I'd still buy the shotgun if you could, it is obviously a nice one.

You can find US made SxS shotguns with Krupp Steel barrels also.

Krupp Steel(used for barrels) was just another product from Krupp industries. They made their real money from rail road related products. Wheels and axels. Their corperate logo is/was, three interlocking cirlces(forming a triangle). These were not ment to look like barrel muzzles, but railroad wheels.

Yes, they did produce lots of artilery pieces, but that was not the main focus.

To learn more about Krupp history, find a copy of " The Arms of Krupp".

Keith

I don't know if she even wants to sell it. I will keep everybody posted.
Butch

The nice old lady told my best friend that her family didn't want it. She asked him if she could give it to me. Helll yes! I hope to see her in the next month or so and thank her in person. My Bud has it in his hands to give to me.
Butch

Awesome Butch. The pics are gone from the host, but I remember it.

Play the MegaMillions lotto on Sat...

Already got my tickets.
Butch