Is it that recoil-operated guns lock up, like the the Remington Model 8, and blow back guns guns don't lock up, like the Winchester Model 1910 (a heavy spring keeps the bolt tight against the cartridge)?

Short answer is yes. There are short-recoils like the Browning P-35 and Colt 1911, and there are long-recoils like the Browning A-5 shotgun.
Regards, Joe

Joe is right but i believe it is more so that the blow back Doesn't lock up. You could make just about any cartridge function in a recoil operated action. But it becomes impractical very quickly on a blow back due to the mass of the bolt.

Now to be clear and wether it's true or not I'm not sure. I've just always heard that a 1911 is a "Browning delayed blowback action". But even a 1911 locks up too so it's kinda both.

The issue is not what it's called but how it functions.

A recoil operated action typically uses a mass that is forward of the breach to slow down the unlocking of the action.
i.e. the 1911 uses the barrel and slide locked together as one mass to slow down the action then the link disengages the barrel from the slide "unlocking" it and allowing it to go through the remaining functions

A blow back relies solely on the mass of the breach block, face, bolt, whatever to slow the motion and recoil of the weapon. It must be in a proper balance to permit cycling through a wide range of cartridge velocities

And Joe just had to mention the Auto 5. I just picked on up last week and man that is one neat design. Long recoil action. Very cool and very reliable and clean. No gas system to foul up and get dirty.

What inspired this question is that I have a Remington Model 8 rifle, which is a John Browning designed, long recoil action auto-loader with a rotating bolt.

I've been looking at aquiring a Winchester Model 1910 in .401 WSL to add to my collection, and it was brought to my attention that the 1910 is a true "blow back" with no lock-up system. That that's when I started to wonder if the lock-up was the only difference between the two systems.

quote:

Originally posted by GAHUNTER:
What inspired this question is that I have a Remington Model 8 rifle, which is a John Browning designed, long recoil action auto-loader with a rotating bolt.

I've been looking at aquiring a Winchester Model 1910 in .401 WSL to add to my collection, and it was brought to my attention that the 1910 is a true "blow back" with no lock-up system. That that's when I started to wonder if the lock-up was the only difference between the two systems.

The barrel moves on an 8, IIRC? If I'm thinking of the same rifle, the action of the barrel in recoil gives a fairly healthy kick. Saw one in the Billings Cabelas about a month ago.

There were two aperture sights for the Number 8 on eBay recently.

The Winchesters were used by many law enforcement agencies back in the day. A friend bought one about forty years ago and used it on a boar hunt in Kentucky with my brother. The rifle was purchased from Hart's Gun Shop in Chesterland, Ohio- proprietor Art Hart was in his earlier life Hart Arms in Cleveland, custom gunmakers, so noted in Michael Petrov's books.

Lets be clear on one thing though. The long recoil action doesn't make it a heavy kicker it's the handling of the recoil after the gun is fired. Not knowing the design very well i can't say on the Rem 8.

The point I'm trying to make is the Auto 5 uses the same system but incorporates a set of braking rings to slow the recoil down, and if properly set up the Auto 5 is a very mild gun to shoot even with 3" mags. I have no idea if such a system is incorporated into the Rem 8.

See know you got me looking. Maybe I need to find me a Rem M8??????
I have to confess. Being a toolmaker I find great interest in John M Brownings designs. It seems that everything that man built was a perfect success and may have been a base for a future design of his own let alone the future design of others. Until the propellents change or the projectiles change I don't think we'll see another brilliant designer such as Mr. Browning.

Actually both the Remington Model 8 and the Winchester Model 1910 were very popular with law enforcement -- much more so than either was with sportsmen.

Both rifles could be, and were, fitted with extended magazines for law enforcement purposes. It was one of these extended-magazines Model 8s in .35 Rem. caliber that Texas Ranger Frank Hamer used to take out Bonnie and Clyde in 1934.

The Winchester Self-Loading rifles came in several calibers including 32 WSL, 35 WSL, 351 WSL and 401 WSL. The 32s and 35s were considered too wimpy and the 401 kicked the snot out of the shooter so Win came out with the 351, a hot-loaded version of the 35 with a different spring and (I believe) bolt/carrier.

These 351s were widely used by law enforcement of the pre-WW2 era and I've read that this was the rifle carried by Frank Hamer in the B&C ambush. Urban legend has it that at least 1 BAR was used also.
Regards, Joe

Here's the most definitive info I've seen on this subject:

http://thegreatmodel8.remingto...ty.com/?page_id=434s

Yes, there apparently was a BAR, but Hamer's rifle was a Remington autoloader.

Any of them would make a unique pig shooter; fun, too. I have a Remington 14 that I would like to clean up and use for that purpose. Mine is a bit beat up, and in .32 as I recall, so I wouldn't feel bad about mounting a low power scope on it to ...counter-act the cataracts

The largest and most powerful straight blowback design I'm aware of was the Austrian Schwartloss (spelling wildly off)machinegun. It was chambered for the 8mm mauser and used a massive bolt and a very short barrel. A neighbor collected orchids and machineguns and had one of the few functional examples left. It was a bear, especially with the muzzleblast. He also had a functional ChauChat we cobbled together from two of the beasts. What a piece of junk.

Jerry Liles

Getting a bit off track here but what is the M2, blowback, delayed or what? BTW see the gov. just issued a contract to build some more of these.
C.G.B.

Recoil operated just as the 1917 and 1919.
Short or long I don't know, I would suspect long.

quote:

Originally posted by cgbach:
BTW see the gov. just issued a contract to build some more of these.C.G.B.

Ma Deuce has been The Queen of Battle for a long, long time now. The only thing I've personally seen that was more impressive was the A-10's cannon.
Regards, Joe

Then for the long answer there are various delayed blowbacks though they go by various names. HK G3 types with roller delay, Remington 51 with momentum block, HK P7 with gas delayed and others.

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
Then for the long answer there are various delayed blowbacks though they go by various names. HK G3 types with roller delay, Remington 51 with momentum block, HK P7 with gas delayed and others.

Yes sir and the 1911 and just about every other auto loading handgun that came along.
Even the all mighty GLOCK (sarcastic intent) can trace it's roots back to John Browning.
IMHO there is but one pistol that is an improvement on the 1911 design and that the HK USP 45. all they did was make it double action and add a decock lever. Thats all the 1911 ever need to be perfect. Although it is just fine the way it is.

Number 8 tang sight-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Reming...&hash=item1c21bd3624

Gunsmithing manual-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Reming...D4873283655748997669

For 200 bucks, I can live quite nicely with the buckhorn sights. (Even if I have to use special glasses to see through them.)